Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Jean II de Rieux

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep‎. Valereee (talk) 14:23, 10 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Jean II de Rieux[edit]

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No citations and conducted a WP:BEFORE to no avail. No reliable source is listed either. I did put this up for the non-controversial but it was removed by an admin for valid reason of not being uncontroversial. ThatFungi (talk) 14:16, 9 May 2023 (UTC) Withdrawn by nominator — Preceding unsigned comment added by ThatFungi (talk • contribs) 14:15, 10 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: People and France. ThatFungi (talk) 14:16, 9 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Military-related deletion discussions. Necrothesp (talk) 14:48, 9 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This discussion has been included in the list of History-related deletion discussions. Necrothesp (talk) 14:48, 9 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Royalty and nobility-related deletion discussions. Spiderone^{(Talk to Spider)} 19:14, 9 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Weak keep there are potentially sources, for example "L’affirmation d’un lignage de la noblesse bretonne au XIVe siècle : Jean II de Rieux et sa famille" a book chapter by Gwenaelle Guillaume, who appears qualified to comment; ref is here [1]. It's described as pp. 37-64 within a larger book, so this could be an in-depth source, but I don't know for sure as I'm unwilling to pay personally to check! She has also written another book on the family[2] though I think that counts as must one source between the two as she's just one author. Jean gets various passing mentions elsewhere, for example because his marriage caused the chateau of Ranrouët to change hands ([3] and he gets a passing mention for having a brass too: [4]. There's some information on him at [5]. Jean II is clearly overshadowed by Jean IV, but I'm very uninclined to delete because (1) I'm neither a French historian nor particularly fluent in French and nevertheless managed to find these possible sources quite quickly, so I suspect someone more skilled would find more, and (2) for someone to be remembered so many centuries after their death, they must have made a considerable splash at the time - and once notable is always notable. At the very least, I'd like input from someone who knows something about French medieval history before deleting. Elemimele (talk) 20:39, 9 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Keep as marshal of France he was certainly notable. See also 1, 2 and 3. Mccapra (talk) 22:05, 9 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Mccapra While I can’t read those for the most part they appear to be just lists of names with highlighted de and Jean. Can you give me an insight as to what these are please? Thanks ThatFungi (talk) 01:05, 10 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Sure. 1. Is an entry in the 1833 Biographie Universelle Classique (22 lines); 2. is an entry in the 1811 Dictionnaire universel, historique, critique et bibliographique (27 lines); and 3. is an entry in the 1759 Grand dictionnaire historique (14 lines). Mccapra (talk) 05:19, 10 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Mccapra so this are basically just lists then? Because of the links I can’t translate them as I do see you say 22 lines and 27 lines. ThatFungi (talk) 05:56, 10 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

No they are not basically just lists. They are substantial entries in three separate biographical dictionaries. Mccapra (talk) 06:08, 10 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Mccapra ah ok. Thanks for that information. I appreciate it. ThatFungi (talk) 06:17, 10 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Keep. Unless this is a complete fabrication, someone born in the 14th century for whom we have a portrait and a birth and death year is highly likely to be notable. Being a Marshall of France would also be a plausible claim to notability. It's on multiple Wikipedias. The sources are probably difficult to find in English, and unfortunately frwiki doesn't have our sourcing requirements, but this person is almost certainly notable. Valereee (talk) 11:35, 10 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I've added @Mccapra's sources into a Further reading section, hopefully someone will happen along who can read French. Valereee (talk) 11:50, 10 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Valereee Can I withdraw my nomination of this article if someone wants to put in their links from above? The references would definitely help. Thanks ThatFungi (talk) 13:38, 10 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@ThatFungi, I've already put those links into a Further reading section. I don't read French well enough to be able to use them to insert citations inline.

But that isn't really necessary. Simply lacking inline citations isn't a reason for deletion of an article. We need to believe sources don't exist that would support notability. It can be tricky when a subject is primarily covered in another language (and even more so when the subject is covered in another alphabet) but a general references section or further reading section shows other editors -- who may be able to access and read them -- that sources do indeed exist.

Yes, you can withdraw an AfD. Instructions are at WP:WDAFD. Valereee (talk) 14:09, 10 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Valereee Ok thank you. I’ll look at the link. Much appreciated (again for all your help). ThatFungi (talk) 14:11, 10 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Valereee Can you close this please? I put the withdrawn statement up top (maybe the wrong place).

Thanks. ThatFungi (talk) 14:16, 10 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.