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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. As noted by Arthur Rubin, the crux of the debate rests largely on whether filk is a sufficiently notable/significant genre that Robinson can be considered notable as a prominent producer of it. Although it's a close argument well-argued on both sides (and certainly much closer than simply counting keep vs. delete !votes would suggest), I find there is just about a consensus that yes, both genre and artist are notable. (In other news, I now have massive semantic satiation of the word 'filk'.) Olaf Davis (talk) 12:03, 29 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Addendum: it's been brought to my attention that the original wording of the above could have potentially been interpreted as a slur against the subject's gender identity. This was absolutely not my intention, and I apologise for my careless wording. I have changed it accordingly. Olaf Davis (talk) 15:53, 29 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

James Robinson (filk musician)

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James Robinson (filk musician) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log · Stats)
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Does not appear to pass WP:MUSICBIO or WP:GNG. The albums appear to be self released. Pegasus awards are given from a single convention, and there are no criteria for nomination, or who can vote. Similarly the Filk hall of fame is an award given inside the con community and has zero notability outside fandom. Gaijin42 (talk) 20:19, 21 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Obvious keep - Most awards for genre music get little notice outside the fandom of that genre. By this argument, any awards other than Grammies are worthless because they are only voted on by people who listen to that kind of music. WP:MUSICBIO #7: "one of the most prominent representatives of a notable style". Within filk music, a recognized musical genre, Robinson is quite famous. And the "self-released" accusation is just plain false: Dr. Jane's Science Notes was released by Off Centaur, for example. --Orange Mike | Talk 20:53, 21 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Respectfully, Off Centaur still wouldn't meet #5 of WP:MUSICBIO, Pegasus certainly doesn't meet #8. #7 could possibly be met if filk is truly notable, but since it isn't actually a style of music, but just a social mechanism for making and enjoying music, I'm not sure that would qualify. This is one club, giving out an award from inside the club, for basically having an open mic jam sessions . Gaijin42 (talk) 21:57, 21 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Convention Guest of Honor positions are not "open mike jam sessions". They are a recognition that the person is (1) a significant person within the SF community, and (2) likely to help bring in paid memberships (SF conventions need to cover expenses, and paid memberships are the biggest source of funds). The "guest of honor," "featured filker," etc. position usually comes with a one-hour solo concert, on a stage with multiple mics. A music guest appearance at a filk-oriented convention or major SF regional will probably mean an audience of 100+ people, sitting quietly and listening to the music they enjoy.
And yes, Filk is not a "style," because we sing folk-style and jazz-style and rock-style and rap and spoken poetry. But it _is_ a genre, defined by subject matter and -- perhaps most important -- a concentration on lyrics as a means to "render emotional the audience" to borrow a phrase from Heinlein. Filk is not something you dance to or talk over, it is something you actively listen to.
Lean toward Keep; as filk is a style of music defined by fandom, and, although the Pegasus awards are parallel to the People's Choice Awards, as anyone can vote, the Filk Hall of Fame is selected by a self-selected, but recognized, "jury". I'd put the Filk Hall of Fame as meeting WP:MUSICBIO #8. That, plus, the fact she[notes 1] actually does have a recognized (but, according to her song, incorrect) theory on Plesiosaur locomotion, seems to add sufficient notability. See http://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0,5&q=%22Jane+Robinson%22+plesiosaur , specifically the reference in http://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-3-642-53748-6_9 (although not in the free section) " Jane Robinson ( 1975 ) who published the first ..." . As I cannot access the full content, I cannot be sure that this is adequate, but it appears she was recognized as an expert in Plesiosaur locomotion at one time. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 02:19, 22 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Disclaimer: I am a personal friend of the subject, so I should keep WP:COI in mind. — Arthur Rubin (talk)
Are you saying you think that 2 papers would push them over the bar of WP:NACADEMICS? (One of them was cited 71 times, but we probably should go ask the biologiy or palentology wikiprojects what their general standard for citation threshhold is. The first source google has as citing that paper itself has 622 citations. Using the data you provided, s/he has an h-index of 2?) And that the Filk hall of fame is " a major music award, such as a Grammy, Juno, Mercury, Choice or Grammis award."? Gaijin42 (talk) 14:29, 22 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete Non-notable. Lack of coverage in reliable sources (filk websites do not automatically count as reliable sources). Unless there is coverage which I missed on a Google search and which the article editors have not provided. It's ok to get coverage within a niche community if that community produces reliable publications - e.g. contemporary experimental jazz has a miniscule following but still produces learned publications with expert writers. --Colapeninsula (talk) 10:41, 22 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Weak keep - the category:filkers is small, and this is probably one of the more notable ones. Bearian (talk) 14:12, 22 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
If that's true, the others should surely all be deleted. This one has 4 refs, all which appear to be self hosted websites of filk/fandom clubs. Not a single mainstream reference, not even local newspaper garage-band type coverage . Gaijin42 (talk) 14:29, 22 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Wikipedia generally, at WP:RS, and WP:MUSICBIO specifically, does not require specific types of sourcing. Your logic would require the elimination of otherwise notable persons merely because they filked. I'm just asserting that this person passes barely, but is most notable as a filker; otherwise I would have !voted !full !keep. Bearian (talk) 15:28, 22 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I think we are probably beating a dead horse at this point,so I will let the conversation go on without me from here on most likely. you are asserting that these filk websites meet WP:RS? They seem like WP:SPS highly WP:QUESTIONABLE sources to me. WP:MADEUP for the most part. Certainly I am not advocating deletion BECAUSE someone filks - what someone's hobby (or more for some) is is of no relevance to notability. More power to them for having something in their life they love, and getting recognized for it from their friends. The question here is is that of encyclopedic value. There are a great many clubs and organizations that give out awards to their members, many national and international with membership and notability much higher than fandom and filking. Is being given such an award by the org, with no notice outside the org, truly a sign of notability? That seems like a massive expansion of WP:GNG (or the other notability guidelines in case of genre clubs like music here) to me. Boy scout troop leader hall of fame? New York Life Chairman's Circle? costumecon hall of fame? Pokemon hall of fame Has anyone other than the filk community written in any significant way about this award, the people who won the award, or even really filking itself? (Can I major in filk at some conservatory? Any music historians writing papers/books about it? A ken burns style documentary about famous filkers?Gaijin42 (talk) 16:15, 22 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
"Has anyone other than the filk community written in any significant way about...filking?" Will NPR do? http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4967052 How about Texas A&M? http://library.tamu.edu/about/news-and-events/2014/01/Science%20Fiction%20Collection%20adds%20Filk%20Materials%20as%20Deeper%20than%20Swords%20Exhibit%20Closes.html — Preceding unsigned comment added by 184.77.222.66 (talk) 01:01, 24 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Noted folklorist Jan Harold Brunvand wrote about filk in his 1998 American Folklore: An Encyclopedia, Media Studies: A Reader also discusses filk, as does The Adoring Audience: Fan Culture and Popular Media. Shsilver (talk) 19:34, 24 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Gaijin, I will admit that I have committed filk myself; but the sheer snobbery, the ad hominem contempt that is necessary to attack the entirety of the decades-long filking community as falling under "WP:MADEUP for the most part", fair takes my breath away. Please re-read WP:BELONG, WP:GHITS, and WP:IDONTKNOWIT. --Orange Mike | Talk 01:59, 24 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This debate has been included in the list of United States of America-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 21:29, 23 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This debate has been included in the list of Academics and educators-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 21:29, 23 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This debate has been included in the list of Bands and musicians-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 21:29, 23 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep Forgive me for commenting as I haven't been on Wikipedia in years, but I think I can add to the discussion. When I produced Shockwave Radio, I played the Dr. Jane CDs often. Not merely for the filking (which were separate shows) but for the science commentary. At the time when it was making news, her song "Who Owns The Bones" about Sue the Dinosaur was a very useful overview. Very few of her songs are what I would call pure "filk" (parody of another song by and for science fiction fans). Most are humorous, and stand on their own to an educated audience. The Dr. Jane CDs are aimed at college/college graduate audience, closer to Tom Lehrer than most Pegasus winners I know of. Baron Dave Romm (talk) 01:12, 24 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep At the risk of releasing the deletion trolls, are you next planning on eliminating all references to the Hugo and Nebula Awards and any authors who have won them, on the grounds that you consider science fiction awards only notable within their own field? Filk is a muscial subgenre that has been around for many years; just because you don't personally like it doesn't mean you should start deleting it. Kevin Standlee (talk) 01:18, 24 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep Guideline should be inclusive, not a checklist. Question should be is the genre notable, and then if so, whether the musician or group is notable within the genre. Deleting all cultural references that aren't about pop culture calls into question Wikipedia's purpose as a reference source. Avt tor (talk) 03:02, 24 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep It is of encyclopedic value in that it is of use to cultural anthropology/sociology scholars. - Davodd (talk) 03:54, 24 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete -- musician in a sub genre that has not itself established significant notability outside its own circles. Here the Hugo and Nebula award comparison fails, since there are many of mainstream publications that reference them, but far far fewer that reference filk or the Filk Hall of Fame, and no citations I can find outside of those circles. -- Michael Scott Cuthbert (talk) 06:08, 24 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep as crossing the verifiability and notability thresholds. Notability is not a matter of opinion so the nominator's feelings about filk music are irrelevant to the subject's notability. - Dravecky (talk) 17:03, 24 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep: Filk music is a small genre. [I have corrected these figures based on numbers supplied by Eli Goldberg of Prometheus Music, one of the most active current producers of Filk CDs] The typical Filk CD sells perhaps 1,000-1,500 copies, with major artists selling as many as 2,500 copies, plus the equivalent of perhaps 200 more CDs in paid digital downloads. But it is a recognized genre, with its own gatherings of 100-200 people: 6 in the US, 2 in the UK, one in Germany. Within the genre, Dr. Jane Robinson was a major name, brought as a guest to several general SF Fandom conferences including Marcon 39[1], Capricon XXIV[2], Norwescon XVII[3], ConFurence 8[4](Furry convention) and Loscon 34[5], plus three Filk-specific conventions: Counterpoint Too![6](the second NEFilk con), Filkontario 2003[7] and Toastmaster at Consonance 1994[8]. In addition, "Dr. Jim" is one of the people who keep Fanfare Music (the Nonprofit that runs Consonance) going. People outside of SF fandom may not have heard of Dr. Jane/Dr. Jim, but those of us in the fandom -- and especially those who sing, listen to, or go to Filk conventions -- know him to be one of the top 10 for notability within the genre, as attested by the convention cites above. Bgoldnyxnet (talk) 19:55, 24 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
    • Added three Filk cons to the list of places where Dr. Jane has been GoH. 3 Filk conventions and five non-filk conventions. Is that enough "notability" for the doubters? If you aint a subject matter expert, maybe you should consult one before proposing a deletion... Bgoldnyxnet (talk) 20:22, 24 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Since WP:NMUSIC criteria 1 specifically excludes "Any reprints of press releases, other publications where the musician or ensemble talks about themselves, and all advertising that mentions the musician or ensemble, including manufacturers' advertising.", and " articles that simply report performance dates" and WP:SPS WP:UGC sites also don't count, I would likely still say no, it is not enough notability. Filking has not received a lot of notice outside of filking. Maybe that's an indictment against mainstream media and culture, but that is the core of WP:N. Beyond W:N the quality of these sourcing in these articles is running pretty hard against WP:V WP:RS and WP:BLP (WP:SPSBLP in particular, which says "never" not "unless its flattering and promotional") Gaijin42 (talk) 20:40, 24 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
By Gainin42's argument, the following articles should also be deleted:
  • Filk Music
  • Filk Hall of Fame
  • Banned From Argo
  • Leslie Fish
  • Ohio Valley Filk Fest
  • Pegasus Award
  • FilkOntario
Either Filk Music is a notable genre, and its most notable performers and writers are notable, or the entire genre and its conventions, awards, etc. are not notable and should be deleted.Bgoldnyxnet (talk) 23:37, 24 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Disclosure: I am a contributor to the Dr. Jane article as well as to several other articles about Filk music.Bgoldnyxnet (talk) 21:04, 24 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Anybody who thinks that Filk is just a "social mechanism" should try listening to the filk that sells. Examples:
* Plus Ca Change (Kathy Mar): http://www.last.fm/music/Kathy+Mar/Plus+%C3%87a+Change You can listen to "Drink up the River" and "Velveteen" for free.
* Retro Rocket Science http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bohnhoff1
* Grendel by Leslie Fish https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PRnKtWsNDBA&index=6&list=PLABE69790BAE395B3
* Chickasaw Mountain Deal by Leslie Fish https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I1hUf4qYwbM
* Daddy's Little Girl https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uGNNDFrQ3HI
Bgoldnyxnet (talk) 16:06, 25 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep. I think the article clearly demonstrates the notability of the subject both within the small world of filk and (by the con GoH invitations) in the much larger world of SF/fantasy fandom, where filk has long been one of the mainstay con activities. —David Eppstein (talk) 01:09, 25 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep. It's a small genre, but it's multigenerational at this point, and that durability counts for something. Also, I run a small music festival (nwcMUSIC, which is, yes, connected to an SF convention, Norwescon) and I book electronica and nerdcore and folk acts... and also filkers. And despite the fact that we don't have a strong filker culture at our event - we really don't - people still come to see these shows. Hell, more people show up for the filk acts like Vixy & Tony than for the nerdcore or the electronica, so it's not just filkers talking to themselves - it's fan culture in general that knows. Solarbird (talk) 06:53, 25 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep. This artist meets several of the critera under "For composers and performers outside mass media traditions:"
* She was one of the first recorded filk artists (if not the first one) to play an electric instrument. This opened the door to other artists playing electronic instruments and filk music that wasn't folk-styled.
* Dr. Jane has composed dozens of tunes within the filk genre. Several of Dr. Jane's songs have gone on to win a Pegasus award.
* Many of Dr. Jane's songs have been referenced in Xenofilkia, a publication devoted to filk songs and parodies of them.

By the way, most of Dr. Jane's tapes or CDs (and those on which she appears) were not "self-published." She appears on many compilation recordings from science fiction conventions. Figmo (talk) 20:23, 25 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

  • Keep for all the above listed reasons. By many of the criteria specified for Dr. Robinson's deletion, even notable folk, much less filk, might come under fire, and Dr. Robinson is very much a notable filker. Also, not finding a subject with just one single Google search is hardly proof of non-notability. It took me about 30 seconds to locate [www.lasfsinc.info/loscon/34/jamesrobinson.pdf‎ this link to a guest-of-honor PDF flyer for the Los Angeles Science Fiction Society's convention], and LASFS is not a purely filk-oriented organization, and a further 15 seconds to find this article in the San Francisco Chronicle, often considered a newspaper of record. That second piece also interviews Robinson in his capacity as chairman of Consonance, a major international filk convention. These results could mean that the original search was simply poorly constructed, and several other search engines are cited in the search engine test criteria. Either way, the results I uncovered in my 45-second investigation suggest that no original research is required to secure Dr. Robinson's place as a notable artist in a notable genre.
Additionally, while I agree that not all filk websites are automatically considered reliable sources of information, ovff.org in particular definitely is. The Ohio Valley Filk Festival is 30 years old as of this October. As for the "lack of coverage" complaint, is NPR not sufficient to confirm the notability of filk? Here's a story from 2010 about the genre.
As for complaints about the lack of a filk major at well-known conservatories, typically, most music majors at most universities specialize in composition, theory, and specific instruments--and then only sub-specialize in genres once they've picked an instrument or two. Speaking of that, there's only one university that offers a major in heavy metal, New College in Nottingham, UK. The vast majority of music genres that have emerged in the past 50 years--EDM (Electronic Dance Music), hip-hop, and other non-traditional formats have sporadic class offerings at university, with very few institutions offering full major courses of study. Lack of inclusion at university is a completely invalid criterion for non-notability, and certainly doesn't argue for non-inclusion on Wikipedia.
In any event, it is my considered opinion that the information presented by all those above strongly suggests that anyone interested in folk music might be interested in filk music, and that anyone interested in filk music would definitely be interested in Dr. James Robinson, one of the foremost voices in the genre (literally and figuratively). Thank you for your time and consideration.Boomshadow talk contribs 07:03, 26 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep It seems to me that one or two people are trying to determine 'notability' and 'reliability' within a sub-genre in which they are totally ignorant. Apparently, the reasons behind asking for deletion have not been researched (or not been researched properly), and may have been done for reasons not having to do with either notability or reliability of the sources. ohmikeghod — Preceding undated comment added 02:54, 27 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ http://www.analogsf.com/0407_08/events_07_08.shtml
  2. ^ http://www.locusmag.com/2004/Future/Conventions.html
  3. ^ http://www.norwescon.org/about/history/
  4. ^ http://en.wikifur.com/wiki/ConFurence_8
  5. ^ http://www.lasfsinc.info/loscon/34/index.html
  6. ^ http://www.nefilk.us/pastcons.shtml
  7. ^ http://www.other-worlds-cafe.com/news/newsletter/news_dtl.php?id=51
  8. ^ http://www.textfiles.com/magazines/HTOMC/htomc.025

Notes

  1. ^ Pronoun selected per his personal preference. He refers to his actions before the transition using the female pronoun. Arthur Rubin
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
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