Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/James Howard Van Pelt

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete‎. Guerillero ^{Parlez Moi} 12:23, 30 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

James Howard Van Pelt

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Lack of notability. This is one of a group created by the same author and listed at Template talk:List of Sea Captains and Pilots. As was discussed at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Charles O. Beebe, being a maritime pilot does not in and of itself confer notability on these people. These articles are those where this is the only apparent claim to notability. Melcous (talk) 07:47, 22 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I am also nominating the following related pages where the only claim to notability made is being a maritime pilot in the same period/location:

:James Howard Van Pelt (the one in title)
:John Joseph Canvin (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
:Howard Van Pelt (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
:William C. Fowler (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
:James Llewellyn Smith (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
:James M. Dolliver (pilot) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
:Joseph W. Colby (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
:Franklin B. Wellock (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

Comment I appended numbers into the list above originally created by Melcous. Please indicate which ones should be deleted, or which one(s) should not be. Graywalls (talk) 07:15, 23 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Delete: The sourcing consists or two Family Search faux references, a report that the pilot fell of the pilot ladder and died, remarkably brief obits suggesting lack of notability by their brevity and a burial notice. There is a book, too. Tenuous in the extreme. Fails WP:V a major tenet of Wikipedia, fails WP:BIO. This comment applies to James Howard van Pelt. I will check the others. 🇺🇦 Fiddle^Timtrent Faddle^Talk to me 🇺🇦 08:00, 22 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Also delete: John Joseph Canvin, Howard Van Pelt, William C. Fowler, James Llewellyn Smith, James M. Dolliver (pilot), Joseph W. Colby, Franklin B. Wellock. Their sourcing is similar to that for James Howard Van Pelt, also inadequate. Nothing that could be considered to be significant coverage, peppered with Ancestry and Family Search faux references. For the avoidance of doubt, delete all as WP:ROTM maritime pilots, doing their hazardous jobs, sometimes dying while performing their roles. Dying on the job is not qualification for notability. I have spent time checking the references for each article. 🇺🇦 Fiddle^Timtrent Faddle^Talk to me 🇺🇦 08:12, 22 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: to the closer of this discussion: It is not my intent to appear to have offered more than one !vote. My opinion should be read as one delete opinion per article nominated. It stands for each article individually, though they are nominated as a batch. I had not seen the other nominations when offering my first opinion. 🇺🇦 Fiddle^Timtrent Faddle^Talk to me 🇺🇦 08:16, 22 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: People and New York. Shellwood (talk) 10:35, 22 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Comment how do you feel about Frank P. Van Pelt and Augustus Van Pelt I just noticed them while peeling the onion. I don't know if those are part of the walled garden series. Graywalls (talk) 10:49, 22 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Graywalls: they certainly could be added in here if others think they should. I tried to start with those from the list that didn't have any other claims to notability in them, no matter how weak. I still think almost all on the list should eventually end up going through this process, I just wasn't sure about doing too many in one AfD. Melcous (talk) 12:55, 22 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Graywalls, @Melcous May I suggest this AfD has all it ought to have in it at present? 🇺🇦 Fiddle^Timtrent Faddle^Talk to me 🇺🇦 14:16, 22 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Timtrent: my intention was to keep this manageable, as per @Liz:'s comment below that people need to look at and comment on all the articles that are bundled. I would imagine another group could be done together where there are claims about awards that the editor has suggested make them notable (I do not believe they do); and some probably do need to be looked at individually. But this is the first time I have done a bundled AfD, so I'm happy for someone more experienced to make the call.Melcous (talk) 03:11, 23 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Delete and delete all these articles on non-notable pilots. It's not enough that they were born, lived, had a job and died. Sandy Hook pilots do not have automatic inherent notability. There are hundreds of thousands of people like this that may have had an obit about them, this does not make them notable. That there is erroneous sourcing is troubling but not surprising. These articles are part of a walled garden. Netherzone (talk) 14:24, 22 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I stand by my !vote to d*lete all eight of these articles on non-notable boat pilots in a small geographic region. They are run-of-the-mill workers who were simply doing their jobs, no more or less notable than a run-of-the-mill train conductor. These individuals are WP:MILL, and fail WP:GNG and WP:BIO. People who simply live, conduct the duties of their job or profession and die do not have inherent notability, even if they had a long career as a boat pilot.

I don't get the "what about Anton Hansch" comment below. That comparison has no merit whatsoever, firstly Hansch was an artist not a boat pilot, and secondly, a simple search reveals that Hansch is in multiple permanent collections of notable museums including the Kunsthistorisches Museum [1], [2], [3] the Museum of Fine Arts, Budapest [4]; the Salzberg Museum [5], among others thus clearly is a notable artist. That Anton Hensch is not a notable boat pilot (or was even a boat pilot at all) has no bearing on this AfD nor on the notablity or lack thereof of these Sandy Hook and Boston pilots. Please explain, as I am not following the "what about X" argument or train of thought at all. Netherzone (talk) 16:39, 24 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Delete: Nothing terribly out of the ordinary for this person that I can see. Article is basically a life summary, no indication why he was more important than any other individual in his position. Sourcing I can find is largely in legislative texts. Oaktree b (talk) 14:44, 22 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Oaktree b Does your comment extend to all the bundled articles, please? 🇺🇦 Fiddle^Timtrent Faddle^Talk to me 🇺🇦 05:23, 23 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Only for the one in the title of the nomination. I haven't reviewed the validity of the rest of them. Oaktree b (talk) 13:53, 23 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Keep - Satisfies the WP:BASIC guidelines by being supported by numerous reliable published sources, including secondary sources that exhibit intellectual independence from one another and independence from the subject matter. Let's ensure the enduring recognition of the notable 19th-century Sandy Hook pilots in our encyclopedia! Preserving their legacy is essential for any comprehensive record." Greg Henderson (talk) 21:30, 22 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Comment - It appears that you have grouped the Sandy Hook pilots together in a single AfD discussion. William C. Fowler stands out as notably and more distinguished, given that a secondary source directly references him on pages 42-43. Is it possible to retain this specific pilot's entry? Greg Henderson (talk) 21:46, 22 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Comment There are 8 articles listed here for consideration, please do not just comment on the first article, the one in the title. If you disagree that these articles should be bundled, please state that as well. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 03:05, 23 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think they should be bundled. The William C. Fowler is a good example. BTW, there are other better candidates for AfD here: Anton Hansch. Greg Henderson (talk) 15:47, 24 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
A landscape painter. How does this even remotely relate to the topic, which is non-notable sea captains? Graywalls (talk) 17:04, 24 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The point here is I don't think they should be bundled. As an aside, I mentioned that there are other people (not pilots necessarily) that have much fewer citations, than these 19th century pilots that have many more citations. Greg Henderson (talk) 17:40, 24 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Greghenderson2006 If you feel it is worthy of being deleted, propose it for a deletion process. WP:OTHERCRAPEXISTS is not a useful argument here. 🇺🇦 Fiddle^Timtrent Faddle^Talk to me 🇺🇦 18:29, 24 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Delete the lot. Having looked at all of the articles not a single individual is notable. They all consist of was born, was a pilot, sailed on this boat, did some routine pilotage duties and died. Routine run of the mill stuff of no encyclopedic significance. Lyndaship (talk) 17:37, 24 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
No encyclopedic significance? Don't you think someone doing research about Sandy Hook pilots would want to know who they were, their boats, and the significance of how these pilots guided oceangoing vessels, passenger liners, freighters, and tankers in and out of the New York harbor? Greg Henderson (talk) 17:44, 24 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Delete All. It is clear considerable amount of WP:BEFORE work went into this AfD and the fruit of the work is jotted down into Template talk:List of Sea Captains and Pilots to sort out notable ones from non-notable ones. Death notices are generally submitted to newspapers by family members. The articles nominated for deletion in this AfD essentially chronicle common life that they were born, became a pilot/captain, did their typical duties, married one or more times, had children, and died. Graywalls (talk) 22:06, 26 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.