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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was Draftify‎. Randykitty (talk) 12:57, 19 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Islamophobic tropes

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Islamophobic tropes (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log | edits since nomination)
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Unencyclopaedic topic. We don't make lists of possible views; the broader topic is covered at Islamophobia. Fermiboson (talk) 05:25, 28 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  • Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Politics, Religion, and Islam. Fermiboson (talk) 05:25, 28 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep – we have similar articles on Antisemitic trope and Anti-LGBT rhetoric. The article is not exactly in ideal shape, but there's plenty to be expanded here. A quick search turns up a few pertinent articles:
    • doi:10.1177/1461444816642169
    • doi:10.1111/j.1467-8322.2011.00825.x
    Also, Islamophobia is already near the upper size limit, so it makes sense to have a separate article for this topic. -- Maddy from Celeste (WAVEDASH) 08:38, 28 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Merge with Islamophobia Islamophobia in the media (thanks, Significa liberdade!). True, the target is already a long article, but this small, specific section is not a good one for branching. Owen× ☎ 11:47, 28 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Comment - If merged and/or redirected, I might recommend Islamophobia in the media rather than Islamophobia more generally. However, as Maddy from Celeste has noted, we have similar articles for other defamatory tropes. I have also included a quick list of articles that discuss Islamophobic tropes on the article's talk page. If we don't merge/redirect, I might recommend draftifying. Significa liberdade (she/her) (talk) 14:31, 28 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Redirect to Islamophobia in the media: This may be a notable topic, but this is far from it and WP:TNT is sorely needed for this one. As it stands this fails WP:LISTN due to a lack of definable criteria. No prejudice towards someome else recreating this at a later date. Let'srun (talk) 21:22, 28 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep. A quick check suggest that this topic meets WP:GNG when you include such common synonyms as "myths" and "anti-muslim". There exists enough sources that the article could be expanded from its current state (which is not good, but quality is not a good argument for deletion). I also think it makes sense to have a separate article for this, like Antisemitic trope and Anti-LGBT rhetoric. Sjö (talk) 07:38, 29 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Draftify Keep per WP:BEFORE's criteria D4 -- I agree with the Keep !voters above that the article should exist, and the nomination seems very much in the category of WP:ZEAL (it came less than three hours after the initial creation). That said, this is not the article that needs to exist. At the moment, it is nothing more than a flat list of statements with no context or explanation, and there is no encyclopaedic treatment of the subject. Draftify will allow the editor to build it out and get assistance from others who might be willing to find Quality sources are out there. A casual glance at gScholar shows that the subject is widely discussed in academic literature [1], [2], [3]. A key term that editors may want to include is Orientalism, the precursor to Islamophobia. Also, there seems to be good secondary articles on such tropes in Buddhism ([4], [5], etc.)that could globalise the article. Cheers, Last1in (talk) 15:13, 29 November 2023 (UTC) Last1in (talk) 18:11, 29 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    I disagree with draftifying; it is in mainspace that articles may develop. If we draftify, realistically, the only one who will know or care about the draft will be whoever created it. In mainspace, it will be more visible and thus will solicit improvements from a larger range of editors. -- Maddy from Celeste (WAVEDASH) 15:47, 29 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Good point. Per WP:BEFORE's D4, If you find that adequate sources do appear to exist, the fact that they are not yet present in the article is not a proper basis for a nomination (emphasis in original). I will change my !vote above. It does sorta raise the question of what Draftify is for, though. Cheers, Last1in (talk) 18:04, 29 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    The article's talk page has a list of sources that may be used to expand the article.Sjö (talk) 06:13, 1 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Nom comment Without comment on the rest of the arguments, I resent the implication that this is a WP:ZEAL nomination. The article as it stands then and now is highly unencyclopaedic, and it was not clear what type of sources could be used. (I would argue it is still not clear, because the scope of the article is poorly defined. Trope and rhetoric are different things, and there's also the "by whom" question.) This is a highly contentious topic, one in which it could be argued that an unencyclopaedic entry is worse than having no entry. Someone who actually bothers to make an improvement can make a new article if it is needed, and in the meantime, letting the article as it currently is stay up unchanged because someone can hypothetically change it for the better is irresponsible (note that having an imperfect article is not an argument for deletion, but TNT is). If the AfD does close as keep without any improvement, I will probably be TNT stubifying the article. After all, if this was clearly inside ARBPIA, it'd have been db-gs'd centuries ago. Fermiboson (talk) 09:07, 12 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Liz Read! Talk! 08:28, 5 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  • Draftify - I'm inclined to think that this is a worthy article for inclusion but I have no idea how it could be fairly written without WP:OR. Fwiw I disagree that this could/should be a redirect to an article about the media because the notion of a "trope" is that it has a life outside of the published media. JMWt (talk) 08:58, 5 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: I don't see a consensus here.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Liz Read! Talk! 07:46, 12 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comment: the article now is essentially the same as it was when nominated. Regardless of the outcome of this AfD, the nomination was appropriate and made in good faith. The accusation of WP:ZEAL is baseless. Owen× ☎ 11:03, 12 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    You do understand that WP:ZEAL has nothing to do with zealotry, right? It has to do with a rush to delete an article before we know whether it's worth keeping. A better name for it would be WP:OVERPROTECTIVE. There is nothing about bad faith in that entire guideline (nor intended in my use of it), just that some folks propose an article for deletion before editors have a chance to build it out. Anytime an article comes up for AfD a mere hours after creation, ZEAL is a reasonable part of the discussion. In this case, the article was (and is) labeled a stub, the nomination came three hours after the first post, and I feel that the subject does have valid scholarly sources as I linked above. Cheers, Last1in (talk) 12:58, 12 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    I know exactly what WP:ZEAL is about, and I stand by my statement. Whether it was three hours or three months, if the article wasn't ready for main namespace, it should have been introduced in draftspace. The topic could have--and I believe should have--been developed inside the Islamophobia in the media article, and only spun off if and when its size and independent notability allowed for a standalone page. WP:ZEAL is an essay intended to discourage editors from nominating articles that haven't had a chance to get fleshed out. It is not an automatic waiver against nomination of pages less than X days old. Yes, ZEAL is indeed often part of the discussion when the nomination comes shortly after the article's creation, but that is not to say that it is always a reasonable part of the discussion. If the potential to mature into a viable article isn't apparent, article age is irrelevant, and a ZEAL accusation is unreasonable and unnecessarily antagonistic. Owen× ☎ 13:41, 12 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    First, I made no accusations here, and there is no reason to be nasty about it. Until a few hours ago, this was a discussion on the merits of the article, not the editors. I found an AfD where (1) I easily located hundreds of quality RSs many of which could help make this a good article (I posted my WP:THREE), and (2) the AfD came three hours after the article's first post (which felt like -- still feels like -- overprotectiveness). Whether it should have started in draft space or not, AfD is not for cleanup and I felt Draftify was a good option. Maddy's point about draftifying an existing, mainspace article felt persuasive to me so I moved from Draftify to Keep. If this is is again going to devolve into insults and accusations, I'll take my leave. Thank you and good day. Last1in (talk) 14:46, 12 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
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