Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Irving Martin

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus‎. Star Mississippi 02:01, 4 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Irving Martin

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Résumé-like WP:BLP of a record producer, not properly sourced as passing WP:NMUSIC. There are statements here that would be valid notability claims if they were sourced properly, but the article says absolutely nothing that would be "inherently" notable enough to exempt him from having to pass WP:GNG on his sourceability -- however, seven of the nine footnotes are simple directory entries that are not support for notability at all, one more just tangentially verifies a fact while completely failing to mention the subject's name at all in conjunction with it, and the strongest source of all is a glancing namecheck of his existence in a very short blurb, which isn't enough coverage to singlehandedly vault him over WP:GNG all by itself.
So no prejudice against recreation in the future if somebody can write and source something better than this, but nothing here clinches his inclusion without better sourcing for it than this. Bearcat (talk) 13:44, 11 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Bands and musicians-related deletion discussions. Bearcat (talk) 13:44, 11 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I'm going to vote to KEEP. I did a couple of edits in the past and have done more recently. I always intended to tidy it up and improve it but as it is with many of us, we have other things on the go. Sometimes a deletion nomination encourages others to get in and do some work as I have and another editor who may be just starting out by the look of things. OK, I've done some more edits recently. In voting to keep, I can say that he is notable for his film and television work, musical supervisor for The Jigsaw Man, see TCM link, and then there's Return of the Saint see Soundtrack collector link, and Space 1999, info at The Catacombs, see link here and more. A prolific music producer with a national top 20 hit for Guy Darrell and other successes. See below,
* 1960s British Beat Music Producers & Labels - Discographies - CBS Records - U.K. and European Singles Discography (1965-1969), at least 46 CBS singles produced by Irving Martin
* Discogs - 160 Credits. There's more that I could add. Karl Twist (talk) 13:11, 16 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

None of those links are reliable or notability-building sources. Notability doesn't vest in using primary sources to verify facts, and can be established only by showing that he has received independent third party coverage and analysis about said facts in media. That is, notability isn't established by sourcing his credits to discogs.com, TCM, Soundtrack Collector, MusicBrainz, IMDb or Spotify directory entries — it requires journalists and music critics to be writing newspaper or magazine articles and/or books about him and his work. Notability is not "did stuff", it's "had independent analytical attention paid to the things he did in real media". Bearcat (talk) 15:54, 16 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Note to the closing admin. If by some chance the consensus leans towards a deletion, could we please look at redirecting this page rather than deleting it? This would preserve the history. In addition to / through his prolific work as a producer, Irving Martin has worked extensively with both Brian Dee and Des Champ as well as worked on various music library recordings. Thanks. Karl Twist (talk) 10:28, 17 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 17:21, 18 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Reply to post at 15:54, 16 September 2023. The links I gave here weren't to prove notability. I just wanted to show the body of Martin's work. When you nominated the article for deletion on See: Revision as of 13:44, 11 September 2023 & (saved example), I could understand this as the references were poor back then. Since then I have done a fair bit of work on it myself, and prior to your response at 15:54, 16 September 2023, it looked like this at Revision as of 13:32, 16 September 2023 & (saved example).
The majority of the references now are relaible with about 14 from music trade (Music news) magazines. There are only about 2 or 3 from Discogs and a couple from MusicBrainz. The 1960s British Beat Music Producers & Labels - Discographies catalogues are I believe from music trade reports. I am confident by doing the reverse, I can find release references and reviews. From now on I will do my best to track down the music trade references for any additional releases. Keep in mind that the British Beat Music Producers & Labels catalogue caters to CBS releases. Martin produced for other labels as well. The majority of the others are Pye, Decca, Deram and Fontana. Martin's greatest production success was probably the Guy Darrell single, "I've Been Hurt" (a Top 20 hit). But Martin also had chart success with the Sounds of Glory album by The London Philharmonic Choir which spent ten weeks in the chart and was a Top Ten selling album. It actually charted again in January 1977, for just one week getting in at no. 50. He also had a degree of success with the group Sheer Elegance and the single he co-wrote, "Dance the Night Away", which while not a national chart hit, it was a radio hit and performed on Top of the Pops. With the mainstream television shows, Return of the Saint, The Sweeney, Space 1999 and The Jigsaw Man, composing and producing music for them. Well, there's a lot here. The part that is unsourced and is "Résumé-like" as you said is the only part that is unreferenced bar a small section at the end. Since taking up this cause after you nominated it for deletion, I was very surprised, and nothing short of amazed at the volume of Martin's work and who he has worked with. Karl Twist (talk) 08:42, 19 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Keep, meets WP:MUSICBIO#C10 for Return of the Saint theme song, and this is not the only claim to notability, meets WP:NCREATIVE.3 for a variety of recordings including I've Been Hurt and Sounds of Glory. Meets WP:MUSICBIO#C8 for winning a GMA Dove Award in 1979, the highest award for Gospel music. —siro χ o 06:36, 20 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: Analysis of the available sources would be quite helpful.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Seraphimblade ^{Talk to me} 05:38, 26 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.