Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Invisible Man (band)

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. Chick Bowen 02:22, 12 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Invisible Man (band)

Re: "Band doesn't seem to meet WP:MUSIC in terms of notability." 32 seperate websites as fact checking sources. Or just go to any HMV record store in Canada and purchase one of the CD's mentioned. You can also write Much Music to inquire about videos from and awards presented for the album 'Body Rock'. Or do some research into Canadian top ten history. — Preceding unsigned comment added by ralfferly (talk • contribs)

You seem to be confused. This is an AfD for an article about a band called Invisible Man. "Body Rock" is not an album by that band. The external links you have listed are, with a few exceptions, not about the band called Invisible Man. While in your mind, Invisible Man and Chaz Coats-Butcher may be synonymous, they are not so to us, and the attitude, the incivility, the conflict of interest, and the sockpuppetry have only harmed your cause. -Jmh123 15:45, 8 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Ah yes I see, because referring to ones actions as "obscene" and accusing one of hijacking is oh so civil. Or do your rules of civility only apply to others? Do as I say not as I do is that it? As to the question of synonymy that has been addressed further down in the discussion. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.56.141.2 (talk) 20:43, 9 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

PS Oh and on the topic of being confused... Next time you are trying to patronize some one you should at least try and get your spelling correct. Sockpuppetry? First of all it's two words sock puppetry, secondly if you are trying to insinuate that I have somehow mislead you there are at least a dozen or so more suitable metaphors you could have used, smoke and mirrors, slight of hand, bate and switch... just to name a few. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.56.141.2 (talk • contribs)

See WP:SOCK. -Jmh123 15:20, 10 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Still two words, not to mention just plain silly and a little childish. You would think a group who deem themselves intellectual enough to be editing an encyclopedia would be able to come up with something a little more clever. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.56.141.2 (talk) 16:50, 10 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Is WP:CIVIL clever enough? It strikes me as odd that you wish to maintain an article of yours (at least by your own definition it be yours) on a site where you deem the editors of it as being childish. -WarthogDemon 17:17, 10 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I don't. What part of I removed it three times did you get lost on? ...and just to be clear it was not I who began the incivilities in this discussion. -—Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.56.141.2 (talk • contribs)

Yet you repeat it (for a fourth time now) as if it proves the article's importance. -WarthogDemon 17:38, 10 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

And that, somehow, pointing the finger at everyone is going to ultimately prove this article is noteworthy. -WarthogDemon 17:43, 10 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Oh my god you can not possibly be this thick. I only keep correcting you because you keep accusing me. I really don't give a damn anymore if any of you believes one word that the article says or not. Your opinion means nothing to me and at the end of the day this whole ridiculous debate is worth no more than a small blurb on a website that quite frankly is a bit of a joke. I mean seriously, an encyclopedia that anyone can edit? Come on! Believe me I am sorry I ever tried to post anything and I will never make that mistake again. Now please get on with your life and let me get on with mine. Good day sir. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.217.120.254 (talk) 18:46, 10 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

You are correct, sir. Calling people thickheaded, ignorant, and childish are obviously not personal attacks. Failure to show notability is an indication this site is a joke. Of course. -WarthogDemon 19:06, 10 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I said good day sir. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.56.141.2 (talk • contribs)

The same. Good day, sir. Cheers. -WarthogDemon 19:12, 10 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Delete (This was previously deleted via my prod). All the sources on this article are just reviews on sites where anyone can submit reviews. I looked for any sort of verification in a reliable source that any sentence in the story is true. Nothing. No notability or reliability or verifiability at all. What's worse is that links to this completely obscure band are being somewhat aggressively thrust on top of articles like HG Wells's The Invisible Man (currently absent) and Ralph Ellison's Invisible Man (currently glowing in its self-promotional glory). This is a little obscene, given that these are two really important pieces of literature basically being hijacked. One member was previously in the (completely unsourced) band Forgotten Rebels. --JayHenry 11:21, 4 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Re: "sources on this article are just reviews on sites where anyone can submit reviews" FALSE: Ground Report and Abort are both magazines, not just anyone can post on them you actually have to work for the publication. CFOU is a radio station in Trois Rivier Quebec which controls all it's own content. "links to this band are being somewhat aggressively thrust on top of articles like HG Wells" "important pieces of literature basically being hijacked" FALSE: Initially a link was tacked on to the very end of all the other links which specifically said "Invisible Man (Musical Group)" to avoid any such confussion. It only started mistakenly getting put in front of other links because of having to be reposted so often due to the overzealous deletion practices of others. — Preceding unsigned comment added by ralfferly (talk • contribs)

If you want to use Wikipedia to promote your band would you please at least use The Invisible Man (disambiguation) along with all the other bands. Invisible Man is a really significant piece of literature. Many consider it one of the 100 most important novels in the English language. --JayHenry 20:47, 7 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Re: How does a simple link to a musical artist of the same name make the book any less important? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.56.141.2 (talk) 20:31, 9 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Oh my, don't be tricked by what's below. Thirty two google hits. Thirty two links and not a single reliable source about "Invisible Man"! A lengthy collection of YouTube videos, Amazon listings and band and fan Web sites. All these sources are explicitly excluded per WP:MUSIC. We're staking a claim of notability on a confusing game of Six Degrees of Separation. Namely, please note that no members of KISS or Grand Funk Railroad or Mötley Crüe are in this band! A guy from this band knows people in those bands, as documented by Amazon.com? I'm sorry, but not even close. HG Wells is British, by the way. --JayHenry 17:10, 7 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Re: "Oh my, don't be tricked by what's below" Nothing to be tricked by if one knows how to do propper research. "A lengthy collection of YouTube videos" Four videos actually. Four big budget, professionally shot videos. Two of A&M recording artists The Forgotten Rebels and two of Multi-platinum Canadian recording artist Lee Aaron that received massive airplay on Canada's music station Much Music. One of which won a Much Music video award, all with Chaz Coats-Butcher featured as a prominent member of both bands. "staking a claim of notability on a confusing game of Six Degrees of Separation" Um... zero degrees of separation actually. "no members of KISS or Grand Funk Railroad or Mötley Crüe are in this band" Nobody said they were. "A guy from this band knows people in those bands" Wrong again. These are not merely acquaintances Chaz Coats- Butcher has actually played in bands with and released Cd's with all of the artists mentioned as documented by any record store you want to go purchase any of these the Cd's at. No misdirection of any kind. One must really learn to read something more thoroughly before making baseless accusations. "HG Wells is British, by the way" Yes and so is Elton John but that doesn't change there US celebrity status. Ever hear of Stompin' Tom Conners?... or Kim Mitchel?... or Rita McNeal?... No? Well they're all big stars in Canada. —Preceding unsigned comment added by rafferly (talk • contribs)

Delete. No real indication of notability.Weak Keep - may pass WP:MUSIC on the basis of Butcher's membership of Forgotten Rebels, who appear sufficiently notable for an article. Needs some refs though.--Michig 17:52, 4 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Delete - The band's main member has clearly played with a lot of other bands/artists, but so have hundreds of session musicians around the world, none of whom merit encyclopedia articles. When/if the band progresses beyond CD-R releases and local bar gigs, maybe a better article could be created.--Michig 20:05, 10 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

STRONG KEEP. Interesting points, although sadly lacking in facts. Not only was Chaz Butcher a member of the Forgotten Rebels a band that has sold thousands of albums and been around since the seventies, he is also accredited as working with Lee Aaron a double platinum artist in Canada as well as members of KISS, Guns n Roses,Grand Funk Railroad, and Mötley Crüe. I'm not sure how anyone could possibly not know how much of an impact these bands have made in music history. Each one of the for mentioned groups have sold more albums than H.G. Wells and Ralph Ellison have sold books combined. Saying that you can not find ANY articles in reputable publications confirming the historical significance of any one of these bands or the members there of is to say the least ludicrous. If you want to verify Chaz Butchers involvement with these people try using google. As far as being purely promotional I see absolutely no links to anywhere where you can purchase anything. What exactly is being promoted? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.56.141.2 (talk) 05:19, 7 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

— 74.56.141.2 (talk) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

Note that Chaz Butcher joined the Forgotten Rebels in 1994 for one album, then was replaced by another musician.[1] -Jmh123 19:22, 9 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Correction: Chaz Coats-Butcher joined the Forgotten Rebels in 1992 and was a member until 1997 which makes him the longest lasting bassist the band has ever seen. The only reason he was only on one album is because there was only one album released in that time period. He was only replaced after he left the band to focus on his own project Blah Blah Blah. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.56.141.2 (talk • contribs)

Cute personal attack, but read WP:COI as well (with regards to the account that edited the article frequently). Or you COULD just go get the sources yourself and source the information to the article yourself. Though I'm guessing no one welcomed you yet. :) -WarthogDemon 05:24, 7 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Even Cuter rebuttal, are you suggesting that calling some one "obscene" or accusing them of "hijacking" are not personal attacks? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.56.141.2 (talk • contribs)

Hardly. I'm offering you to prove your point by finding the sources I can't find. -WarthogDemon 06:08, 7 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Hmm . . . looks like I stand corrected in that matter. My apologies if I offended you. Peace. -WarthogDemon 06:28, 7 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

: STRONG KEEP. I have compiled many links documenting different projects Chaz Coats Butcher has been involved with over the years including KISS related recordings as well as four videos he is prominently featured in, two from multi-platinum Canadian recording artist Lee Aaron and two from A&M recording artists the Forgotten Rebels taken from Much Music (Canada's version of MTV). I have also included amazon.com links to CD's featuring Chaz Coats-Butcher. I sincerely hope that thirty two seperate, individual references including video evidence will be sufficient proof of this artists contribution to music history. Keep in mind there are celebrities in other countries besides the United States.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.56.141.2 (talk • contribs) (second vote by IP 74.56.141.2)

KEEP. The fact that he was a member of both the Forgotten Rebels and Lee Aaron alone makes him historically relevant in Canada. Both these acts have played a significant role in Canadian music history. Perhaps their should be different versions of Wikipedia for different countries or maybe an international version which is inclusive of non- US historical figures. -ralfferly 1:46 10/07/2007 —Preceding signed but undated comment was added at 15:50, 7 October 2007 (UTC) — ralfferly (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. [reply]

Delete per Rafferfly's WP:SPA, personal attacks, and the article itself, which does not meet WP:MUSIC, but would be better as a short paragraph in the appropriate article. Chase me ladies, I'm the Cavalry 16:00, 7 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Re: What personal attacks? I was merely stating a fact, if this were a debate about the relevance of some lesser know US author all it would take is a thesis written by some under grad from a "learning institution" that you deem "prestigious" enough and this debate would be over. But let's address the topic of personal attacks. Shall we? How about the flippant suggestion that an artist who has toured the world several times, performed huge festivals like San Remo sharing the stage with artists like The Eurythmics, Depeche Mode, Van Morrison, Sinead O'Connor, etc... and is accredited as performing on albums that have sold over 400,000 copies world wide should be reduced to nothing more than a foot note in a biography of one of the many groups that he has been involved with just because you are unfamiliar with his work. That is like suggesting that Ralf Ellison should be nothing more than a blurb on H.G. Wells' biography merely because Wells invisible man sold more copies. Let's not be petty now. -ralfferly 3:46 10/07/2007

Weak keep, the page name gets a lots of hits on Google. I agree with the others keepers. Keep it if notable. 1() 18:48, 7 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
keep, OK this is all pretty ridiculous. Some people really have way too much time on their hands? Maybe I can help set the record straight. My name is Chaz Coats-Butcher. I have performed live, recorded with and/or been in projects with all the following but not limited to: Lee Aaron, The Forgotten Rebels, Nazareth, Dr. Hook, Phil Naro (Talas / 24k), Bruce Kulick (KISS, Grand Funk Railroad), John Carabi (Motley Crue, RATT), David Lee Roth (Van Halen), Bruce Dickenson (Iron Maiden), Jake E. Lee (Ozzy Osbourne), Eric Singer (KISS, Alice Cooper), West Arkeen (Guns-n-Roses), Jeff Scott Young (Megadeth, Badi Asad), Barry Stock (Three Days Grace), Jeff Jones (Tom Cochran), Brett Carrigan (Honeymoon Suite), Randy Cook (Chantal Kreviazuk, Kelly Clarkson, Natasha Beddingfield) as well as producers Eddie Kramer, Michael Wagner, Geoff Workman, Tom Lord-Alge etc, etc... You can actually physically purchase CD's I have played on at virtually any record store in Canada and most in the states. A few examples are Lee Aaron 'Body Rock' which was on the Canadian charts for almost two years, The Forgotten Rebels 'Criminal Zero' and 'Brief Anthology', Phil Naro 'Glass Mountain', 24k 'Ten Year Tour', as well as 'Forever Mod' a tribute to Rod Stewart who's credits read like a who's who of Rock history including names like Eddie Money, Billy Duffy from The Cult, Matt Sorum from Guns-n-Roses, C.C. Deville of Poison and so on and so forth. Any of this can be verified by going to your local record store and simply buying any one of these CD's. Not to mention my new CD Invisible Man's 'Music for Lost Souls and Misfits' which will be available in stores starting in November. As far actual written documentation of all these endeavors if anyone has access to any rock magazines (Metal Edge, Music Connection, Kerrang, Etc...) form the late eighties, early nineties I am sure you will be able to find whatever you need as this is the time frame we are talking about with most of these projects. I hope this helps, now could you please stop picking on my little peice of history. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Chazbutcher (talk • contribs)
- — Chazbutcher (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
Delete. Per nom and JayHenry. I'm seeing arguments here that might establish Coats-Butcher's notability, but are not convincing for keeping the article on this band. -Jmh123 22:48, 7 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Delete - Not notable, simple enough. One diehard fan doesn't make it notable. Phasmatisnox 03:05, 8 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Delete Not notable enough. The old pile of external links (removed from this page but here is a link to old version of the article page with it) is still not convincing enough. Again, possibly enough notability for Coats-Butcher but not this band. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 06:34, 8 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Re: "possibly enough notability for Coats-Butcher but not this band" Clarification: just as Damon Gough is Badly Drawn Boy, Gordon Sumner is Sting and U2's Dave Evans is called The Edge, Chaz Coats-Butcher is Invisible Man, like a pseudonym or an AKA. As it states in the bio Invisible Man started out as a solo project the other members were only hired after Coats-Butcher had completed the album. He has been recording and performing under the name Invisible Man since 2001. Therefor you can not separate the two, if one is noteworthy they are both noteworthy. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.56.141.2 (talk) 16:53, 9 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

That argument only works when both the individual and the band are well-known and have been synonymous from the beginning. -Jmh123 19:13, 9 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Re: Beginning of what exactly? Time? All the fore mentioned artists were in bands before and all under their original names. John Mellencamp achieved success under the name John Cougar then changed his name back. Does that negate the success he had under the name Cougar? I don't think anyone would have argued at the time that the success he had achieved albeit under a different name did not Merritt him being listed under this new (old) moniker... even if he had not released any material under that name yet. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.56.141.2 (talk • contribs)

WHATEVER - Oh my god you people are pathetic. I am the one who posted the article in the first place and I have already removed it THREE times since this discussion began!!! But you keep reposting it so you can sit around debating on whether YOU will remove it or not. Talk about a bunch of self important blow hards. Get over yourselves people, it's over Nobody cares anymore!!! Seriously, you all desperately need to get a life. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 210.5.199.18 (talk) 14:59, 8 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

That's right, sir, as Wikipedia has guidelines and procedures to follow. A "speedy delete" was one of those procedures, and the article was deleted, but it was recreated, so this "article for deletion" discussion is the next step. Just yesterday User:Chazbutcher was edit warring to prevent a speedy deletion without realizing that this is a different process. Once you post something to Wikipedia, it isn't "yours" anymore and you cannot control it. Please note at the bottom of any page with an edit box: "By submitting content, you agree to release your contributions under the GNU Free Documentation License. If you don't want your writing to be edited mercilessly...do not submit it." -Jmh123 15:24, 8 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

In the words of the immortal George Jetson "Jane... Get me off this crazy thing!!!" LOL

Chaz Coats-Butcher 10\09\2007

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.