Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Inner-SDF conflict during the Syrian Civil War

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was redirect to Syrian Democratic Forces#Alleged internal conflict between SDF factions. Although the merge option has received a fair amount of support, there is an unresolved issue regarding the reliability of the sourcing and original research. Issues of that nature cannot be resolved by merging. Sjakkalle (Check!) 09:24, 18 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Inner-SDF conflict during the Syrian Civil War

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Not at all notable or significant, can simply be covered in the SDF and specially the Liwa Thuwar al-Raqqa and Raqqa Hawks Brigade (literally the only groups involved); it already is. There is no need for an entire article dedicated to this "conflict", consisting of sporadic incidents—the last of which was over a year ago, just like there's no need for inner-TFSA, inner-Ahrar al-Sham, or inner-Tahrir al-Sham conflict articles; all of these conflicts are innumerably more frequent and intense than the few cases of inner-SDF fighting. 𝓛𝓲𝓰𝓱𝓽𝓼𝓹𝓮𝓬𝓼 (talk) 12:11, 18 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Syria-related deletion discussions. Shellwood (talk) 12:33, 18 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Keep No, this article simply should not be deleted, and it seems what is "notable" and what isn't "notable" is a rather subjective topic. This is an essential article as a conflict in the Syrian civil war, there are no articles on the "inner-TFSA" conflict but there are 2 articles on the conflict between rebel factions including the conflict between HTS and Ahrar al-Sham along with additional groups involved, as well as the conflict between the rebels and ISIS. It is a similar conflict as to those between ISIL and the other rebels, and until recently it was a single article but since has been separated into two separate pages for one covering conflict relating to HTS against the other rebel groups, and ISIL against the rebel groups. Your comparison is not comparable at all, and when rebel groups do fight each other articles are created on the subject, for example when Ahrar al-Sharqiya came into conflict with other rebels groups in the Syrian National Army, it was noted on the page covering the inter-rebel conflict during the Syrian civil war. It is not fair, or arguably even objective to not have an article covering internal tensions in SDF, and what is covered on SDF's article is not as detailed nor is it anything more than a summary that even casts doubt on the existence of the internal conflict by calling it an 'alleged conflict, despite how it is actually discouraged to use terms like alleged on wikipedia. The article covers 3 three years worth of infighting that happened on multiple instances and is written in an in depth nature that took hours of research and writing to compile. This article has every reason to exist and has no reasons not to exist, it is an important part of the Syrian Civil War that receives very little attention or gets overlooked, and wikipedia being the world's largest free encyclopedia very well should have the article, for future historical and academic research allowing for the best quality information that can be provided on the subject.

Takinginterest01 (talk) 17:34, 18 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Inter-rebel conflict is notable since it is widely covered by international press. Many instances were also battle-like clashes with hundreds of casualties each. In contrast tensions between SDF factions is covered, but they rarely escalated into actual conflict. The "three years worth of infighting" refers to what? Three minor incidents every year? It's not about fairness. It's a fact supported by sources; rebel infighting is simply much more frequent than infighting between government or SDF forces, which is why there is no need for articles on the latter. You mentioned that fighting between Ahrar al-Sharqiya and other groups were noted in their respective articles, but there is no article on inner-TFSA fighting despite its frequency.

The article is also highly biased and misinterprets poorly-cited sources. For example, Jaysh al-Salam and the Raqqa Hawks Brigade as a whole are listed as active belligerents in an active military conflict (last related incident took place more than a year ago so it can't be considered ongoing) despite the fact that only certain subgroups of fighters from both groups were involved in sporadic incidents. Pinging @Sakiv, Goodposts, Applodion, EkoGraf, and Bobfrombrockley: for more opinions. 𝓛𝓲𝓰𝓱𝓽𝓼𝓹𝓮𝓬𝓼 (talk) 09:41, 19 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I actually find that it covers a subject, which is quite interesting and noteworthy in it's own right. Prior to the creation of the SDF, Northern Syria was split between opposition groups, Kurdish groups and government forces. Ever since the SDF was created, it was positioned as a "neutral" party, which did not actively oppose the Syrian government, but didn't support it, either. However, it's definitely worth noting that far from being a singular, unified force, It is more of a union between the various groups that existed pre-merger. Some of these groups have very different ideas relating to Syria's future and are very split on the issue of negotiations with the Syrian government. Having the clashes between the various factions listed is definitely very helpful to better understanding the internal dynamics of the SDF, as well as it's relations to the other factions in the Syrian Civil War. However, the first half of the article is badly sourced, and I'm not sure if having a military conflict infobox is the best way to display the information at hand. Furthermore, Lightspecs pointed out, the clashes were sporadic at best, relatively minor in scope and limited in frequency. At the same time, I can't deny that it is noteworthy. I believe it has the right to exist, although I'm not sure in what form. As other editors have mentioned, the TFSA is also experiencing similar issues, but has no article of their own. I'd add to that, that Syrian Government and pro-Iranian, as well as some NDF militias have also had sporadic and limited clashes, mostly around petty issues. However, I don't belive that's as much an argument for the deletion of this article, as it is an argument that we need to better cover those subjects as well. One solution, in this case, would be to modify the article - add some better sources, more clarifications, and perhaps change up the way the information is presented to the reader. Another, should the community decide that it's better to delete it, would be to instead merge it with either the SDF article, or the Inner-Rebel Conflict in the Syrian Civil War. I think the information should be preserved in some way, although it also needs some work. I'm generally not a fan of outright deletion, unless the information is either irrelevant, false or otherwise disruptive. In thise case I belive it to be neither. I'm interested in hearing what other editors in the Syrian Civil War community have to say. Best regards, Goodposts (talk) 11:44, 19 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Military-related deletion discussions. MrClog (talk) 15:22, 19 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Delete: As said above, the article in its current is mostly cobbled together from info of other articles, poorly sourced, and does misrepresent the clashes that have occurred among SDF groups. What little fighting took place was more akin to police actions than warfare, not to mention that the infobox does not reflect the complexity of the issues at hand: Some groups mentioned fought among themselves during said conflict, split apart, with different factions backing different sides. In some cases, it is not even clear who was exactly with who during the "clashes" - With some of the most notorious examples being that the Raqqa Hawks have seemingly disappeared since 2017, although most of the militia stayed loyal to the SDF, and the chaos involving Liwa Thuwar al-Raqqa, whose commander has claimed to have not been arrested, and then claimed to have been arrested by the SDF. Furthermore, as far as I remember from reading about inter-SDF "clashes" during the last three years, no source ever mentioned that anyone actually died during SDF vs. SDF events. People were arrested, but they did not die. Considering this, it casts doubt on whether these events should even be called "clashes". Applodion (talk) 22:31, 23 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Sandstein 13:26, 25 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Keep Applodion has a long list of criticisms of the article, which seem broadly fair, but they all imply the article needs work, and maybe re-naming, but not that it should be deleted. There is material here that can produce an encyclopaedia article. Bondegezou (talk) 12:50, 30 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Delete per WP:OR. Moaz786 (talk to me or see what I've been doing) 14:11, 30 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment Has there been some sort of internal conflict or at least dispute between factions within the SDF? Yes. Is there reliable sourcing on these events? Yes. Then the article should be kept. If there's too much WP:SYNTHesis in the article, then that needs cleaning up, but AfD is not clean-up. Bondegezou (talk) 15:36, 30 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  - Comment The SDF/NES recently announced readiness to join the 2019 Northwestern Syria Offensive on the side of the Syrian government. However, just a couple of months prior, the 'Army of Revolutionaries' and 'Northern Democratic Brigade', both of which also members of the SDF, had expressed readiness to join the offensive, but on the side of the Syrian opposition. It is clear that there is some kind of a division within the SDF, pertaining especially to the relations of the group vis-a-vis the Syrian govt. I think the article should be modified, maybe have the more badly cited parts rewritten entirely, perhaps even merged with the main SDF article, but as I'm seeing more and more of these issues, I'm tending more toward a keep stance. Goodposts (talk) 12:21, 2 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Sandstein 13:53, 2 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Vanamonde (Talk) 02:16, 10 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Delete. This is a potentially legitimate subject, however the sourcing is so poor that the whole page amounts to WP:OR. Also, remember that one needs good RS on the subject of the page as a whole, not just a bunch of arbitrary selected incidents. My very best wishes (talk) 19:54, 12 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Merge with Syrian Democratic Forces - topic belongs there as part of that organization's history - not significant enough for a stand-alone WP:CONTENTFORK article - also, article title is confusing as "SDF" can stand for many organizations - Epinoia (talk) 00:28, 17 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Merge to Syrian Democratic Forces per Epinoia. Not enough independent notability to justify a stand alone article. As such it is an improper CONTENTFORK. This also has the advantage of preserving the record of the article in case the situation vis a vis notability changes. -Ad Orientem (talk) 02:50, 18 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.