Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Idar of Kabardia

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus. MBisanz ^talk 22:52, 23 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Idar of Kabardia

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The only sources are blogs, etc. Searching turns up nothing. The Turkish article is just a copy of this one. Then there's, for example, "He married firstly a Crimean Giray, Princess Nazdschan Khatun (ca. 1470 - 1520), daughter of Meñli I Giray," but that article doesn't mention her and I can't find her. See also this AfD. Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Selimiye Hatun. And he had a son named Pete? I can't find the source for "Legends of the Circassian people" although it's true that Shora Nogmov (not Shore) wrote a history of the Adyghe people but again he does seem to have written about folktales and legends.[1] Doug Weller talk 17:58, 25 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of History-related deletion discussions. Coolabahapple (talk) 10:33, 27 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Keep but prune -- Unfortunately I do not read Russian, so that I cannot verify what Nogmov wrote. However if the quotation is correct he was a ruling chieftain of a Circassian clan. If so, I would have thought he was notable. All the genealogical stuff is essentially unsourced, except from genealogical sites and a blog could be pruned off. Peterkingiron (talk) 17:02, 27 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Remarks : the text is partially an automatic translation of Nogmov's work. This Idar is sometimes alluded to, but often only as the father of Temryuk (father in law of Ivan the terrible) ([2], [3]). I don't know if it makes him notable enough nor if there is sufficient material to write an article. The current article was obviously created in the context of his alleged, unsourced and unlikely relationship to Mahidevran.--Phso2 (talk) 10:37, 28 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment Thanks @Phso2:, so that's where the "Pete" comes from. I see that it says "Tradition has preserved us an entertaining story about the grandson of the famous Inala, Prince Idar." - who is clearly the subject of this article. I don't think that a story about a tradition is sufficient for notability. @Peterkingiron: - pinging you about this, I don't know if it affects your opinion. The quote is from the link given by Phso2 - Google translate gives "Finally this terrible carnage is over the world, on the following conditions: "to the prince settled in Idar Kabarda where he pleases.Kabardians is obliged to check his senior prince in the whole obey him; oppose his will as it was decided to execute." Finally this terrible carnage is over the world, on the following conditions: [105] "to the prince settled in Idar Kabarda where he pleases. Kabardians is obliged to check his senior prince in the whole obey him; oppose his will as it was decided to execute." At the end of the negotiations and the unanimous approval of the peace treatise, the troops returned to their homes. Idar-Prince shortly after arrived in Kabarda and, taking the reins of power, possessed it unquestioningly. It owns a part called Idar.It's copied pretty directly gibberish and all. But it is tradition and not history. Doug Weller talk 11:34, 28 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Hi @all, maybe User:Retrieverlove can help us be wise here since they created the page. Please if you can provide any reliable source about this Idar, would be nice. I would suggest to Keep as per my knowledge that this Idar existed. Unfortunately we must have reliable sources to back the claims this article contains. Specially to the family section. If no reliable source can be found even to back the beginning sentences and the lead then deleting would be better, as this would mean that this person is not notable enough to be on Wiki, since no publication has been made to even tell his full name, biography comes next. Thanks - Worldandhistory (talk) 01:40, 1 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Sam Walton (talk) 15:11, 4 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

My view is unchanged. I am assuming that the quotation is not pure invention, but as I do not read Russian I cannot tell. Peterkingiron (talk) 18:38, 9 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Delete - princes and beys are not automatically notable. There are just insufficient sources to make this person pass as notable generically. Bearian (talk) 18:45, 18 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Keep. Clearly a real historical figure: "In 1561, Ivan the Terrible, the first Russian sovereign to be crowned as czar, married Princess Gosheney, the daughter of Prince Idar Temriuk, in order to place the Kabardians of Eastern Circassia under his control" (Circassian History p.267 ISBN 146531699X), and as sovereign ruler and founder of a royal dynasty of some note, he must surely pass WP:POLITICIAN. "Civil war ensued, and Prince Idar emerged as the sole potentate" (Encyclopedia of the World's Minorities, p.676 ISBN 1135193886). Even if there is not enough material for an article on Idar, per WP:RETAIN the material should be kept and merged and redirected to a new home, perhaps create a House of Idar article. The importance (and notability) of the House of Idar is confirmed by this scholarly paper "Originally relatives of the second wife of Ivan the Terrible, the Circassian princes of Kabarda married into the Romanov family and reached the pinnacle of power and wealth".

I agree that the genealogy in the article is suspect. The princess Gosheney referenced above, clearly real and important, does not appear in the article genealogy at all. This should be removed if not better sourced. SpinningSpark 22:42, 21 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.