Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/IDF Command and Staff College

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 22:56, 20 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

IDF Command and Staff College

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I was actually shocked that a search did not turn up enough in-depth coverage to show it passes GNG, most occur in a Googles book search, but they are almost all passing mention of the type, "x is a graduate of the IDF Command and Staff College" or "x, former commander of..." or others of the type. I had sent this back to draft a few weeks ago, when it was sourced with a single primary source. It had been tagged for poor sourcing for a month with no improvement. I had hoped that perhaps it was simply a matter of sources being available in Hebrew, but not showing up in English, and that the article's creator would put the time into properly referencing the article. However, they simply moved it back without improvement the same day, and have not improved it since. The current source does not even meet WP:VERIFY. Onel5969 ^{TT me} 18:56, 13 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Well, I am not obliged to jump through the hoops on your whim. Just the same, I can advice you "learn a bit of Hebrew before judging Israeli military education". Loew Galitz (talk) 20:33, 13 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Israel-related deletion discussions. Onel5969 ^{TT me} 18:56, 13 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Military-related deletion discussions. Shellwood (talk) 19:03, 13 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
keep. Nomination without merit. An Israeli top military school. Anyway, Loew Galitz (talk) 20:01, 13 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
- P.S. Lack of due diligence by the nom. I easily added English sources with significant info. Loew Galitz (talk) 20:56, 13 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Keep - I was actually shocked that this stub that was only created a couple months ago was nominated for deletion, when the subject is clearly notable and likely to make for a decent article, if given the opportunity. - wolf 22:09, 13 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Keep and rename. This institute does exist, and I believe that enough sources can be found, especially in Hebrew, to establish that. However, the institute is part of a triumvirate of three Israeli military colleges: This one; the National Defense College (which was almost closed down); and the Tactical Command College. In the Hebrew Wiki, the subject is treated with a general article (he:המכללות הצבאיות) for all three colleges, followed by a separate one for each of the units (he:המכללה לביטחון לאומי, he:המכללה הבין-זרועית לפיקוד ולמטה and he:המכללה לפיקוד טקטי). While this setup might be okay for the hewiki, where there is more interest in this sort of niche topic, I believe that here a general article would suffice for all three. In most of the sources that I have seen, they are most often bundled together. Take for example the discussion (in Hebrew) regarding moving them from the Glilot base near Herzliya to a new campus in Ein Kerem, or the reporting around which university would certify their courses. Contrary to how military academies are perceived in the West, this particular school seems to be lacking in notoriety; it lacks a permanent home, it has been accused of substandard instruction, and it has been shopping around for university affiliation. Finally, I am not even sure that this is the proper name for the institute. It seems to be known in sources as Command and Staff College, which would require some form of disambiguation. But as I said above, I would prefer to see the article scope to be about Israel's military colleges in general. Havradim leaf a message 00:58, 14 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

It seems there is some misunderstanding. I do plan to write a general article, which matches hewiki: IDF Military Colleges when I have spare time (it is a boring subject for me, but it is relatively important and nobody in enwiki really cares), but this PUM-shmum article is an independent subject. In fact, it was an independent college for quite some time: 1954-1991. And of course in the most of current sources you see these colleges bundled (but in some the are not), because I suspect we cannot see pre-internet sources :-) Yes, it has been accused of substandard instruction, but the whole mil edu in Israel was accused of sub-instruction. And exactly for this reason they were all bundled together, and eventually put under the instruction from the University of Haifa, apparently due to scarcity of qualified instructors among the military. Shalom, next year in Gan HaVradim! :-) Loew Galitz (talk) 01:44, 14 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

In my opinion, the military colleges is the correct topic. The reason I voted keep here and not delete is because I don't think that the article is so off-course from that goal that it needs to be WP:DYNAMITEd. It just needs more content added, but I am not sure I agree with you that IDF Military Colleges is the correct title. Nevertheless, I am open to being persuaded that the current scope is sufficient as it is. After all, we do already have Israeli Naval Academy and Israeli Air Force Flight Academy, although these two seem to be grouped differently. Havradim leaf a message 02:20, 14 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

On the name issue, why not go with Israeli Defense Forces Command and Staff College? - wolf 03:13, 14 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Because that is not its name. According to the IDF itself, it might not even be a college, but rather a "course". See here (in English) and here (in Hebrew). In this Hebrew article, it seems to indictate that the command and staff "course" is administered by the "colleges". Havradim leaf a message 04:02, 14 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

"IDF" is for disambiguation. see Command and Staff College (disambiguation) Loew Galitz (talk) 04:37, 14 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

You would need to find sources that state unequivocally that this is the name. And even if you find that IDF is part of it, we would need to determine if it should be spelled out as Israel Defense Forces. But my contention here is twofold: 1. This isn't the name. 2. This may not even be a college, or deserving of an article title in the first place. Regardless of that, there is more than one way to disambiguate. So Command and Staff College (Israel) is another option. But to repeat, I am far from being convinced that this should be the article scope. Havradim leaf a message 05:57, 14 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Just a note: the suggeestion was for dab purposes, not a debate on the subject itself. If the name can't be supported, then obviously we should go with a name that can be, and going to a bracketed name (for dab) like Loew Galitz suggested would be my next choice as well. - wolf 15:39, 14 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Keep. Seems to be an easy keep per WP:COMMONSENSE at least. And probably per WP:GNG for those who can read Hebrew. -- Necrothesp (talk) 13:22, 14 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Keep per, you know, above. As for the name, in English sources used in the Avraham Tamir (its creator/first director) article, there is an obit that says "the IDF's staff and command college", and the bio from the Center for Israel Education which predates the creation of this article and says "the IDF Staff and Command College". So I would go with IDF Staff and Command College, currently a redirect. Kingsif (talk) 22:37, 14 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
- "Command & Staff" is standard order in naming of such colleges, so goes in official IDF sources, therefore I used this title in the first place. and oh, by the way, commons:Category:IDF Command & Staff College, which predates my article. Loew Galitz (talk) 00:10, 15 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
COMMENT: Let us not litter the AfD with renaming suggestions, OK? There is a separate procedure for this. Loew Galitz (talk) 00:10, 15 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

If part of the debate around keeping or not is whether the name is accurate/appropriate, it is valid to discuss that. "Keep but rename" would be a valid outcome in such situations. Kingsif (talk) 03:12, 15 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
This happens when the scope is confusing and renaming clarifies the issue and consolidates possibly the voting. I.e., when article title is closely tied to the judgment of its notability. The simplest example is WP:SINGLEEVENT: when an article, e.g., about an otherwise nonnotable but lucky thief of a $Bln painting is renamed into a page about the heist. Clearly here there is no question about article scope and I highly doubt that a different title would somehow change the outcome. (Another situation is trivial: when the title is horribly wrong and an alternative is evident. Otherwise all nitpicking whether to use definite or indefinite article in translating "Mädel vom Egerland", etc. is better to defer to the article talk page, so that when someone decides to change the definite article back into an indefinite, I doubt they will be consulting the old AfD page. ) Loew Galitz (talk) 03:59, 15 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Keep. Hewiki with plenty of coverage is only one click away. gidonb (talk) 03:14, 16 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Keep per above passes WP:GNG. Inspect61 (talk) 17:05, 16 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Keep Has reliable sources and passes WP:GNG. Timetraveller80 (talk) 19:23, 16 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.