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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. Black Kite (talk) 20:36, 1 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Hwal Moo Do[edit]

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Hwal Moo Do (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log · Stats)
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Is this a notable martial art? There are next to no sources in English. Seems it became more popular in Italy, since there are some Google News hits in Italian, but I have trouble evaluating whether they are reliable and in-depth. As Korean name in Hangul is not given, and no Korean sources are cited, it is hard to even begin evaluating coverage in Korean :( Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 07:06, 15 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Korea-related deletion discussions. Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 07:06, 15 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Italy-related deletion discussions. Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 07:06, 15 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
(Sorry I'm not yet familiar with this discussion page I hope this is the right way to answer) Thanks for having highlighted the issues. Which exactly are the parameters to define a martial art as notable? This martial art is present in the countries indicated in the article (Italy, Greece, Switzerland, US) not in Korea. It originated in Korea as the founder was high rank in Tang Soo Doo in Korea [1] and took many techniques of the Tang Soo Do. I added the Korean name in both Hangul/Hanja. This martial art is more popular in Italy but as it's practiced in other countries as well an article in English should be more appropriate. Available online news mostly regard the engagement of Hwal Moo Do students in kickboxing competitions — Preceding unsigned comment added by Spiripunzel (talk • contribs) 20:30, June 15, 2020 (UTC)

— Spiripunzel (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

@Spiripunzel: Please see Wikipedia:Notability_(sports)#Mixed_martial_arts for the answer to your question re "Which exactly are the parameters to define a martial art as notable". --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 01:05, 20 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Actually, the best place to see notability criteria for a martial art is at WP:MANOTE. Mixed martial arts is a subset of the martial arts project. Papaursa (talk) 02:10, 23 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ https://books.google.ch/books?id=dJkIioY6IocC&pg=PA37&lpg=PA37&dq=Hwang+Kee+lee+kun+hwa&source=bl&ots=bDt7MAm2H-&sig=ACfU3U0nrkfGHAEsQtqtk030e7h0lXQmPQ&hl=it&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwi5_-Dm1IPqAhUGTsAKHeY8Cb8Q6AEwCnoECAoQAQ#v=onepage&q=%20lee%20kun%20hwa&f=fals
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, North America1000 09:10, 22 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Martial arts-related deletion discussions. North America1000 09:11, 22 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete I don't see the evidence that this art meets any of the notability criteria at WP:MANOTE. My search didn't find significant independent coverage of this art nor does the article show such coverage. There are a decent number of ghits, but also a severe lack of independent articles. Youtube, Facebook, and individual dojo/organization articles do not help show notability. Papaursa (talk) 02:29, 23 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment to closing admin. If this is deleted, please also take care of the problematic categories currently present in the article. Even if the article is kept they likely need to go. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 09:48, 23 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
@Piotrus: I agree that Wikipedia:Notability_(sports)#Mixed_martial_arts is not applicable as the fighting sport practiced in Hwal Moo Do is Kickboxing and not MMA. WP:MANOTE looks more appropriate.
@Paparusa: As mentioned most of the sources are in Italian only as the discipline is primarily practiced in Italy. I collected some additional articles from different Italian online/printed newspaper which I think meet the "Criteria supporting notability" defined in WP:MANOTE.[1][2][3][4][5][6][7][8][9][10][11] In addition looking at other martial arts such as Hwarang Do or Tang Soo Do most of the sources do not really meet the criteria "Subject of an independent article/documentary" as they are created by the organization itself or by people deeply involved in the organization.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Spiripunzel (talk • contribs) 18:16, June 29, 2020 (UTC)
@Spiripunzel: Please sign your posts. I went back and looked at the martial arts notability criteria and still don't see that this art meets any of them. Looking at your sources, I see a congratulatory note for success at a sports festival, an article on the success of the Italian team at the U.S. Open in Orlando which is an open tournament that requires no qualifying and has hundreds of divisions (definitely not the highest level), an interview with the founder, a 7 page long list of people for the Italian kickboxing team, and a bunch of congratulatory articles from various competitions. The articles don't mention this art and the competitions are not the highest level. None of these show significant independent coverage or meet any of the criteria at WP:MANOTE. If other arts fail to meet those criteria, it means they should be deleted not that this should stay (see WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS). If you can specifically show me how it meets WP:MANOTE I am willing to reconsider my vote, but nothing you have shown so far is sufficient. If you are connected to this art in any way then you should read WP:COI. Papaursa (talk) 16:42, 29 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
@Papaursa: Congratulatory articles are about international WAKO competitions. They can be verified on https://www.sportdata.org/ where the results of most of the WAKO competitions are published. For example HMD is listed in the top-ten teams of the Irish Open in 2020[12], 2019[13], 2017[14], 2016[15]. Or Athens Challenge [16] (multiple years) and other european tournaments easly verifiable on sport data. Now, if events like the Irish Open are not in your list of high level competitions, then I honestly suggest to get informed about Kickboxing in Europe. By the way if newspaper articles, international championships and athletes in Italian national FIKBMS team (which by the way requires qualification) are not source of notability, please go on with the deletion as this seems to me more like censorship than patrolling. Spiripunzel
This is not about censorship, please WP:AGF. I've been familiar with the Irish Open for almost 20 years. It is a big tournament, but it has hundreds of divisions with most of them for children or underbelts (non-black belts). All of those levels are not "the highest", which are generally considered world championship or Olympic events--and junior martial arts divisions generally never confer notability. Even Youth Olympic gold medalists have been determined to be non-notable for WP. This is your first article and I understand your passion. I'm just trying to help you understand some of WP's policies. I have nothing against this particular art, but listings of results are not considered significant coverage (more like routine sports reporting). Papaursa (talk) 11:02, 30 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
@Papaursa: Apologize for being a bit rude. I kind of understand your point, I also still have some remarks such as (1) those medals were not only from junior but also in black belts categories, (2) having many juniors joining and winning such events should also mean that the discipline has many practitioners compared to common kickboxing teams. (3) A martial art should not only be about fighting tournaments and world champions, that should actually be named fighting sport. However, I accept that there are not yet the requisites of having a dedicated page for the Hwal Moo Do. I will then search for sources which could highlight the linking and relation of this discipline with the Tang Soo Do and Tae Kwon Do and eventually propose additions to those pages.Spiripunzel
  • Delete - The corresponding Italian WP page has no interesting links to it, the MA is seems to be less than 30 years old, there are no books about it, and the art's so-called grandmaster does not merit a WP page. This is not close to clearing GNG; with respect to verifiability, clicking on the non-RS links given provides me with content of ambiguous relevance to the article. — Charles Stewart (talk) 13:20, 1 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
  1. ^ "Il Centro (online/printed newspaper)".
  2. ^ "Il Mamilio (online/printed newspaper)".
  3. ^ A government recognition paper (PDF)
  4. ^ "Budo international interview (online/printed martial art magazine)".
  5. ^ "Infomedianews (online newspaper)".
  6. ^ "Terre Marsicane (online newspaper)".
  7. ^ "Marsica Live (online newspaper)".
  8. ^ "Ilfaro 24 (online newspaper)".
  9. ^ "Metamagazine (online newspaper)".
  10. ^ "Controluce(online newspaper)".
  11. ^ Recent FIKBMS (Italian Kickboxing Federation) qualification paper showing HMD athletes qualified for national kickboxing team (PDF)
  12. ^ "Irish Open Statistics 2020".
  13. ^ "Irish Open Statistics 2019".
  14. ^ "Irish Open Statistics 2017".
  15. ^ "Irish Open Statistics 2016".
  16. ^ "Athens Challenge 2020".
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