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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was redirect to List of Marvel Comics characters: Y. No.objection to sourced material being merged. Spartaz Humbug! 19:03, 21 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Ho Yinsen

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Ho Yinsen (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log · Stats)
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Yet another non-notable fictional character. Zero real-world notability. Fails WP:GNG. Onel5969 TT me 21:07, 3 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Fictional elements-related deletion discussions. Onel5969 TT me 21:07, 3 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep. This isn't even a marginal case. Ho Yinsen is one of the most important characters in the Iron Man mythos, and absolutely crucial to Iron Man's origin, hence why Ho Yinsen has appeared not just in the comic books, but in so many other adaptations of the character, from TV series to multiple theatrical films. —Lowellian (reply) 01:19, 4 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Response: There isn't a single source cited in that article that isn't a marvel comic book. If this character is so notable, there should some be some coverage of the character from outside fictional marvel comics. Otherwise that article (A) lacks notability and (B) is just WP:Fancruft. Apples&Manzanas (talk) 01:30, 4 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Also, it's worth noting that if the character is so important to iron man, then that can just be mentioned on the iron man wikipedia articles. That doesnt mean that Ho Yinsen needs his own article. Apples&Manzanas (talk) 01:43, 4 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
There is plenty of coverage of Ho Yinsen in secondary sources: ComicBookDB, ComicVine, and MarvUnApp. Here is an article on Ho Yinsen from a non-comic-books website. Actor George Takei, who has no relationship with Ho Yinsen (has never played the character), has an essay about Ho Yinsen posted on his website. —Lowellian (reply) 02:56, 5 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Note to editors: the above comment from Lowellian was only recently added, after much discussion had happened later on this article. Lowellian would not allow me to move his comment to a more appropriate place in the discussion. Lowellian adding that comment to this part of the discussion is poor form because it makes it seem like i was ignoring his comment when i was talking about how no one was able to show any secondary sources later on this page. My comments about that came first, and he/she has simply added this new comment to the wrong part of this discussion - which for bizarre reasons lowellian would not allow me to move. I have responded to these sources at the bottom of this article so as to preserve the natural flow of discussion and to retain a logical chronology of events. Apples&Manzanas (talk) 03:35, 5 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I was responding to your comment about lack of sources, so the appropriate place for the natural flow of the discussion is to place the comment here, directly below the comment to which it is replying. Trying to move my comment away is poor form because not only is it editing my comment without my permission, but it hides my reply to your comment and wrongly makes it seem like I did not reply to the request for sources. My comment is in the right part of this discussion, below the comment to which it is responding, since Wikipedia uses threaded discussion. Furthermore, it is logical to keep all my arguments together under the umbrella of my main bullet point instead of scattering part of my argument down to the bottom of the page as if I were multiple different editors. No one would have thought you were ignoring any comments; not only do comments have timestamps in the signature, but Wikipedia editors understand that in a threaded discussion, replies get added to earlier comments over time that may change the situation. Plus, I even put an extra note at the bottom that "I added examples in an addendum to my keep comment above" as a courtesy to make the situation clear. This was a complete non-issue, and posting this boldfaced "note to editors" attacking me needlessly injects incivility into this discussion. —Lowellian (reply) 04:43, 5 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I totally disagree with everything you've just said, but I won't elaborate on this because it's irrelevant to the discussion and i don't want to derail the discussion, and thus I agree to move on. Apples&Manzanas (talk) 06:17, 5 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
It is because Ho Yinsen is so pivotal to Iron Man's origin story that the character appears in adaptations of Iron Man across many different forms of media, not just comic books: Ho Yinsen saved Tony Stark's life, helped him build the original Iron Man suit, and then sacrificed himself to save Tony Stark again. Batman becomes Batman because Joe Chill kills Thomas Wayne and Martha Wayne. Those characters all have Wikipedia articles. Spider-Man becomes Spider-Man because of the death of Uncle Ben. Uncle Ben also has a Wikipedia article. There is thus plenty of precedent for having articles for supporting characters whose primary role is in the origin stories of the most notable superheroes. —Lowellian (reply) 02:35, 5 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Reply: Ignoring the "otherstuffexists" argument for the moment, literally every page you linked to contains a reference from the real world outside of a fictional comic book universe, something that this article doesn't have. Those examples don't help prove your case. Apples&Manzanas (talk) 02:45, 5 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I don't know what you mean by saying the glossary "won't survive the next decade or two here anyway." Can you explain that? Apples&Manzanas (talk) 00:18, 5 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I think he's referring to an effort to remove comic character articles from Wikipedia. There are currently 72 AfDs for comic characters, 65 of which were started by the same nominator here. That editor has expressed a dislike of the proposed target and would prefer to see it reduced to a bulleted list of blue links. The list's original (and current) purpose is to provide information on characters that are only notable within the fiction. Argento Surfer (talk) 17:48, 5 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • I can. This is an allplot GNG fail and should always be a redirect to the most relevant list. ミラP 01:24, 5 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • There are plenty of sources outside Marvel comic books. I added examples in an addendum to my keep comment above. —Lowellian (reply) 02:56, 5 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Reply: These are not reliable sources. "Goat" does not appear to be a mainstream news outlet with editorial standards and just seems like a random website. The comicsvine wiki appears to be something anyone to contribute to. Thecomicbook database thing is not a published article in anyway shape or form, and is just a random bit of information on the internet. Marvunapp is not a reliable source. George Takei did not write that article, some random person called dennis livesey wrote that article on his website. Georgetakei's website is not a credible news outlet with editorial standards. I wish you added these sources to the bottom of the article, adding your comment up there makes it look like we were ignoring your comment when we were saying no secondary sources have been presented because people read articles top to bottom. Apples&Manzanas (talk) 03:35, 5 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    I concur with the above source assessments. Maaaaybe we could be a bit more charitable with the post on Takei's blog, but even then we'd only have one solid source, which still falls short of notability guidelines. signed, Rosguill talk 03:45, 5 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
That's not George Takei's blog. It's his culture/society website with articles by many writers, and the author of the article under discussion is not some "random fanboy", but a hired writer for the website. —Lowellian (reply) 07:05, 5 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Dennis Livesey (an unknown writer) wrote an very short article on George Takei's website about how a marvel fan made some tweets about an Iron Man character. I don't think this is notable enough to justify an article for Ho Yinsen. It's highly dubious whether this counts under WP:Reliable sources, it's totally WP:Fancruft, and even at best, that content from the article on Takei's website is totally insignificant failing the "significant coverage" test of WP:Notability. Surely the only options are to delete, redirect, or small partial merge. Even if we were to imagine that georgetakei's website was the new york times (which it isnt), I fail to see how one meaningless footnote is enough to justify the existence of an entire wikipedia article. Are we going to create a new wikipedia article every time a new article appears on George Takei's website? lol. Apples&Manzanas (talk) 09:55, 5 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This discussion has been included in the list of China-related deletion discussions. ミラP 01:41, 10 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: No real consensus to outright Delete; relist to get clarity on Keep vs. Merge vs. ReDirect
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Britishfinance (talk) 15:47, 12 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment - Considering the only proposed target has the character's name and a "Main" template pointing at his article, I think all the "redirect" votes should be counted as "merges". Argento Surfer (talk) 16:58, 12 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Merge - Agree with the above comment. Also, all the delete votes should obviously be counted towards merge/redirect rather than keep. To be honest there seems to be a pretty clear consensus that the article should not be kept - none of the votes to keep the article were made along policy lines. There seems to be a clear consensus on the fact that this character lacks significant coverage by reliable secondary sources (so far only one article has been produced that could potentially count). Apples&Manzanas (talk) 17:36, 12 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Apples&Manzanas, you have voted "Redirect" earlier. If you have changed your mind, please strike your earlier vote - Jay (talk) 18:45, 20 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
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