Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/History of video game consoles (eighth generation) (5th nomination)

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. /ƒETCH COMMS / 00:30, 11 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

History of video game consoles (eighth generation)[edit]

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The determination of what consoles belong to what generation - or more so when the next generation starts - is something that has to be done by secondary sources. While the 3DS does represent a significantly new unit, and is being called "the next generation" of the DS console, it does not equate that this is an eighth generation console. The sources provided in this article do not assert this fact, simply just an announcement of the 3DS and the PSP 2. MASEM (t) 01:42, 4 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Also as I note this is #5 AFD, I strongly recommend salt and full protection until such a time the WP:VG community asserts it is necessary to have an article. --MASEM (t) 01:44, 4 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

There is no need to delete - Yes, this article is mostly about the 3DS and the PSP 2, it also points to Sony, Nintendo, and Microsoft talking about there next gen home consoles. How do you think the 7th Generation article started? It was only about the PSP and the Nintendo DS. Unlike the previous 8th generation articles. This on has sources and has a great start to become a bigger article. Furthermore, Nintendo has stated that the Nintendo 3DS will succeed the Nintendo DS Series, which are currently 7th Generation Handhelds. A Major Successor usually states the beginning of a new Generation. I am not saying things like the release of the Nintendo DSi is "next gen" hardware. Microsoft said the Xbox 360 will succeed the original Xbox, Sony said the PlayStation 3 will succeed the PlayStation 2, Nintendo said the Nintendo DS will succeed the Game Boy Advance Series. Nintendo said the 3DS will succeed the Nintendo DS series, so it clearly belongs in a new generation. It uses different hardware than the Nintendo DS Family, the graphics are incomparable to the Nintendo DS. The 3DS is NOT 7th generation because it uses different media and is considered "Backward Compatible" To the Nintendo DS. If it was current generation, the DSi would be able to play 3DS Software. That's like asking "Why is the Dreamcast in the 6th Generation" or "Why put the Game Boy Advance in 6th Generation and Not 5th?". The 3DS belongs in the 8th Generation. Again, how do you think the 7th generation started? It was the Nintendo DS and the PSP. Every Article has to start somewhere. SBPBYABYXWAGDMKMID (talk) 02:12, 4 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Everything you've stated is original research. Is it reasonable? Sure. But is it allowable on Wikipedia? No - we have no source that says "the 3DS and the PSP2 are the first two consoles of the eighth generation". We know it's coming, but this is a case of WP:CRYSTAL and/or WP:HAMMER as per the 4 previous AFDs for this. --MASEM (t) 02:47, 4 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Delete - clear case of WP:CRYSTAL.--70.80.234.196 (talk) 02:46, 4 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Delete yet again WP:CRYSTAL. Vodello (talk) 03:57, 4 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Delete and salt per WP:CRYSTAL. Ten Pound Hammer, his otters and a clue-bat • ^{(Otters want attention)} 04:01, 4 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Keep While you can only write 3 paragraphs, since the corporations are keeping a tight lid on releasing more than teasers on what will be available beyond the Nintendo 3DS, those teasers are very well referenced. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 04:37, 4 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- It is not a matter or sourcing or length. It still comes down to the fact that it is not just a new console that defines these "generations" but industry sources when they feel the next gen of consoles is upon us. Maybe tomorrow, they'll say "Hey, everything has motion control, we're going to retro-activity call the Wii, Kinect, and Move as 8th gen", we'll worry about then.. Is it likely that the PlayStation 4 or whatever the Xbox 360 successor will be 8th gen? Sure. But to say that now screams CRYSTAL. --MASEM (t) 05:08, 4 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Doing math isn't original research. (Previous generation) + (new generation) = (next generation). It is the same for Ipods, and Hondas, and Intel and AMD chips (where the number of processors doubles in the case of chips). "New generation" and "Next generation" are clear synonyms for whatever the new generation number is even if the article doesn't use the magic number 8 in the text. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 05:17, 4 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Given that it is a term of art used by gaming journalists, we cannot define the onset of that term. Most importantly to this case: not one reliable third-party source calls the 3DS or the PSP2 an eighth gen system. They may be treated at 7th gen for all we care, even if their revamped hardware. Shouldn't the DSi or the PSP Go been considered 8th gen relative to the DS or PSP (1)? Basically, the term is not strictly defined by hardware that we cannot make that extrapolation. --MASEM (t) 12:42, 4 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Delete Per WP:BALL: "Articles that present extrapolation, speculation, and "future history" are original research and therefore inappropriate. While scientific and cultural norms continually evolve, we must wait for this evolution to happen, rather than try to predict it." Keristrasza (talk) 09:52, 4 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

keep Where in this article do you see speculation, I don't see anything like "The Next xbox will have a 200 core processor with an Nvidia 6000 GTX, and will have 5GB of RAM..." The statements here have references to them, therefore, this article should stay. —Preceding unsigned comment added by SBPBYABYXWAGDMKMID (talk • contribs) 14:54, 4 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- The specs for the next Xbox, for example, are not speculation - or at least because they're sources, it's not a problem. What is speculation is when "8th gen" will start. We have no assurance it will be the 3DS/PSP2, it may not even be the next Xbox. --MASEM (t) 15:07, 4 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Keep The use of the term is backed by reliable sources which support the notability of this article as part of the series. Alansohn (talk) 15:39, 4 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Delete it is original research and crystal-balling to start calling 3DS and PSP 2, 8th generation console, when there are no source supporting that. Until then, this has to go.—Chris!_c/t 17:37, 4 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Also salt the article title to prevent re-creation. Unsalt only when there are reliable sources on 8th generation console.—Chris!_c/t 17:45, 4 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Reluctant delete – without anything confirming that stuff like the Nintendo 3DS is 8th generation, all this is is a dumping ground of gossip and speculation. As Masem pointed out, while there are sources about what the consoles are planned to be like, there is nothing from any reliable sources or from the video game industry itself referring to these as 8th generation; that is not our job to do that for them. As an alternative/2nd choice however, I would weakly support a merge to either 2010s in video gaming or History of video games#2010s; certainly as a stand-alone, it's not even history. –MuZemike 17:38, 4 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Again: Doing math isn't original research. (Previous generation) + (new generation) = (next generation). It is the same for Ipods, and Hondas, and Intel and AMD chips (where the number of processors doubles in the case of chips). "New generation" and "Next generation" are clear synonyms for whatever the new generation number is even if the article doesn't use the magic number 8 in the text. Even if my math was off and 7 + 1 is not equal to 8, then all it needs is a name change, not deletion, to: History of video game consoles new generation; or History of video game consoles next generation, if Wikipedia doesn't allow synonyms. Note that there are a half dozen synonyms for the War in Iraq. All are used in the article as a reference despite not using the magic one that was chosen as the title of the article. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 18:17, 4 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

It's not a problem with the math, it is a problem based on the assumption a new hardware cycle will necessarily start a new generation. It has pretty much always in the past but there is no guarantee of that. The designation of "eighth generation" is a term of art we need to let secondary sources settle on for its definition, and they may go on the obvious definition, or they may throw us for a loop. Either way, attempting to discern that definition now is crystal-balling, period. --MASEM (t) 18:25, 4 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

That is why we have sources: "Video game giant Nintendo on Wednesday slashed its annual profit forecast, citing the recent strength of the yen, and said its new-generation handheld 3D console would miss the Christmas shopping season." and "Now Xbox UK director Stephen McGill has poured some cold water on a successor to the console appearing anytime soon and stated that there is still life in the Xbox 360 and they're still years away from contemplating what comes next."(my emphasis added) --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 19:10, 4 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

See: "new generation" + Nintendo DS in Google News Archive. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 19:14, 4 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

See: "next generation" + Nintendo DS in Google News Archive. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 19:15, 4 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

See: "successor to the Xbox 360" in Google News Archive.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk • contribs)

You're still missing the point, granted that it is very subtle. The industry, as a whole, will decide when we enter "the 8th generation". Nintendo, Sony, and Microsoft can shout all they want that they're releasing their "next-gen" system (and yes, math tells us that 7+1=8), but it is not their place to decide it, it is the whole industry including those that report on the industry. Mind you, if all them are saying their next consoles are next gen, it's a good chance the industry will recognize them as 8th gen, but that is crystal-balling it. It is very important to note that "seventh generation" (as with all previous ones) are terms of art as created by the industry, we cannot create it outselves, and right now, there's no-one talking "eighth generation". --MASEM (t) 19:29, 4 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Likewise, "new generation" is not a denotion of "8th generation". There were previous "new generations" of the DS, there are "new generations" of the Xbox360, there were "new generations" of the the PS2, there were "new generations" of the 2600 (6 generations to be exact). None of those were/are definitions of being in the literal next generation, i.e. raising the industry generation bar to the next generation. Literal next generation lines are defined by the industry and media. Always have been. --Marty Goldberg (talk) 20:08, 4 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: RAN attempted to move the page to "History of video game consoles (next generation)"; moving of articles under discussion at AFD is very much frowned on so I have moved it back. Moreso, the (next generation) moniker is even worse, and really evokes CRYSTAL and HAMMER. --MASEM (t) 19:36, 4 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Delete - WP:CRYSTAL/WP:HAMMER Sergecross73 msg me 20:01, 4 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Delete - Delete, per all the reasons mentioned above, and per my comment above as well. Additionally, generations have never been defined by handhelds, which are on a separate tract from consoles. --Marty Goldberg (talk) 20:08, 4 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Delete - unless sufficient reliable sources are found describing and specifically noting the 8th generation. This is G4 candidate, no? –xeno^talk 20:12, 4 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Delete as per WP:CRYSTAL. people always comment on new generation, but that does not make it worthy of an article in this context.LibStar (talk) 03:40, 5 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This debate has been included in the list of video game related deletion discussions. (G·N·B·S·RS·Talk) • Gene93k (talk) 17:33, 5 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This debate has been included in the list of Games-related deletion discussions. -- • Gene93k (talk) 17:34, 5 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Delete and Salt - clearly a point of dispute over and over, but it comes down to sourcing, and there just isn't any sourcing saying the 3DS and PSP2 are "eighth gen". Salt for now - when proper references come along someone can work on this in a sandbox, then ask it to be moved and creation allowed. --Teancum (talk) 17:53, 5 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Delete - As with all numbered generations, the number "8th" is an invention of Wikipedia editors. This article could just as easily be called "List of video game consoles released in 2011." Let's get out of the business of making up names for hardware generations and stick to the facts. White 720 (talk) 20:49, 7 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Keep - Every article has to be created somehow. The seventh generation article was created in the same ay. The information on the article is reliable, with Sony and Nintendo stating about their new consoles. Besides, the 3DS is confirmed, and its an 8th gen console. I just think the article could do with a bit of a cleanup and some more references. Technoguy123 (talk) 14:39, 9 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Please re-read through this nomination. None of what you mention provides a valid reason to keep the articles or counters any of the points and guidelines raised. 1) All the articles recently added regarding Sony's and Nintendo's consoles are purely speculative in nature which once again violates WP:CRYSTAL, and most of the sites (glorified blogs) cited are questionable on meeting WP:RELIABLE. 2) Handhelds do not define console generations (which is what they are), they are on a separate tract. 3) Even forgetting point number 2, the 3DS is not stated as an 8th generation handheld. All the references mention it as a "next generation" or "succesor", which is how every upgrade to a line is referred to, whether it's "generation defining" or not. There were previous "new generations" of the DS, there are "new generations" of the Xbox360, there were "new generations" of the the PS2, there were "new generations" of the 2600 (6 generations to be exact). None of those were/are definitions of being in the literal next generation, i.e. raising the industry generation bar to the next generation. Literal next generation lines are defined by the industry and media (and always in relation to point 2). Always have been. --Marty Goldberg (talk) 16:16, 9 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Keep or Rename The article is 6 days old. Let it develop for 2 more weeks or so before complaining about the content and sourcing. If after 2 weeks, it isn't any better, then deleting it may be reasonable. The best option, however, is to rename the article "Future of video game consoles". I don't think anyone denies that there are facts on this page. I think the major 'debate' is whether or not it is a new generation. By simply calling it the future of video game consoles, there is no need to define what a new generation means. Vince220 (talk) 18:12, 9 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

This article is not 6 days old, this is the 5th recreation of this article. It's not simply about the content or sourcing. There is no verifiable 8th generation yet, per the reasons everyone mentioned above. Whether or not these are facts about these specific proposed consoles are not in question, it's whether or not these facts are supportive of the topic - which they are not. Likewise as has been pointed out by all the other editors voting delete, we do no allow content or article subjects (including your suggested article title) based on WP:CRYSTAL/WP:HAMMER. Once again, there's a reason why this is the 5th time up for deletion (and by the number of delete votes, it appears the 5th time it will be deleted). And I for one agree with the others that this should be seeded to prevent recreation until such time the video game project can undeniably (with full conensus) state (and reliably back up) that the "8th generation" is in swing. Handhelds do not define the next generation of consoles, and speculative info about unreleased and unannounced regular consoles do not define it either. --Marty Goldberg (talk) 18:48, 9 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: The fact that this keeps getting recreated suggests we are wasting too much time on deleting it--content that people want will always come back. Surely we can reach some agreement on where the key content can go. I don't play videogames or care about them so I have no comment beyond that.--Milowent • ^talkblp-r 00:27, 10 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Right, that is exactly why I think the article should be salted to prevent re-creation.—Chris!_c/t 22:58, 10 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.