Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Hermoton

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep‎. The Wordsmith^{Talk to me} 20:16, 18 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Hermoton[edit]

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Offwiki request by Generalissima. Rationale to come. Queen of Hearts ❤️ (no relation) 02:19, 4 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Per the Realencyclopädie der classischen Altertumswissenschaft, simply described as an ort ("location").

Macedonian imperialism and the Hellenization of the East (1924) names it as one of a number of locations Alexander marched through in his campaign in Mysia. An Inventory of Archaic and Classical Poleis (2004, pg. 986) describes it as a frontier marker of Kyzikos. Could find no other descriptions, so it appears to be some sort of non-notable geographical feature. If it was a town, only its name has survived. Generalissima (talk) 02:24, 4 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Delete: Agreed. Completely non-notable ancient location.

TheBritinator (talk) 10:14, 4 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Keep. On the assumption that either could be the correct name, and since the linked page is just an index to PW, I checked the actual entries for both "Hermaion" and "Hermoton", in alphabetical order. PW has somewhat more to say than "a location":

Place in Mysia minor, known for the race and outwitting of the Parians on the Propontis and the Lampsacenes on the Hellespont in their dispute over the border of the territories on both sides. The name probably means a border marker made of stones or hill earth. It was 70 stadia from Parium and 200 stadia from Lampsacus. Presumably Hermaion from R. Kiepert's Map of Asia Minor B. 1, 13.5 km south of the ruins of Parium, 39 km southeast of Lampsacus, near Karajaly on the Karapunar (Black Fountain) Dan. It is very likely that Hermaion was called Hermoton in later times.

The article cites to Polyaenus for the race and outwitting of the Parians, and to Arrian for Hermoton. Here's what Polyaenus has to say in Strategemata, vi. 24:

The Lampsacenians and the Parians, who had a dispute about the boundaries of their respective territories, agreed each to dispatch a certain number of persons from one city to the other at an early hour of the morning; and wherever the two groups met, that spot should be the common boundary between their territories. The Lampsacenians persuaded the fishermen, who were employed along the road where the Parians were due to travel, to cook some fish on that morning, and make libations of wine, as a sacrifice to Poseidon; and then they should ask the Parians, as they passed by, to share with them in the sacrifice, in honour of the god. The Parians agreed, but one mouthful of fish, and one glass of wine, induced them to take a second, and so on; until so much time was lost, that the Lampsacenians arrived first at the Hermaeum, which is seventy stades from Parium, and two hundred from Lampsacus. By this trick, the Lampsacenians gained a large territory from the Parians, and the Hermaeum was established as the boundary between the two states.

Under "Hermoton", PW has this to say, citing Arrian's Anabasis of Alexander, i. 12. 6:

Place (small river, see Hermotus) in Mysia minor, station of Alexander's train from 334 BC. BC, between Colonae and the Granicus, probably the same as the Hermaion in Mysia minor.

And checking Arrian, there's not much to add, apart from Alexander sending out scouting parties ahead of the army, which are described in some detail, although whether this should fall under the heading of Hermoton or is simply adjacent to its mention is unclear. For transparency, I used Google Translate on both articles, then edited them for spelling and grammar in English; I also omitted some internal citations and technical abbreviations.

Neither of these sources expressly state that Hermaion or Hermoton was a town, although one might infer that from the way that it's mentioned in Arrian. The Barrington Atlas evidently regards it as a village or town. But irrespective of whether it was a permanently settled place, it does appear to have some significance of its own that wouldn't be fully covered under say, Parium or Lampsacus, to say nothing of Alexander. Certainly there's enough for a short article, just as there is in PW—where it's actually split between two articles.

I'm not aware of any policy that says that the subjects of Wikipedia articles must be more notable than those in other encyclopedias; as our space is practically unlimited and we have the potential to combine material from different sources—such as what Polyaenus and Arrian actually had to say, how the Barrington Atlas or other archaeological resources regard the place, etc. we should presumably have a lower bar for inclusion, not a higher one. An assertion of non-notability despite the above articles, and particularly the mention in Polyaenus, seems arbitrary to me, and contradicts the plain statement in our policy that notability is not temporary; locations that had some notability in the Greek world do not become non-notable because they have no importance to the modern world, or because our information about them is limited to what a few surviving passages in Greek writers have to say, and what can be inferred from them. P Aculeius (talk) 16:18, 4 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Keep Mentioned alongside another 'small town' called either 'Priamus' or 'Priapus' in several bios of Alexander (see 1, 2, and others). I agree with P Aculeius that the two entries in the Pauly-Wissowa (a first-rate specialist encyclopaedia) are evidence that this topic has encyclopaedic value. 𝕱𝖎𝖈𝖆𝖎𝖆 (talk) 04:57, 5 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Delete Article has no information of any value. killer bee  05:16, 11 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: History, Geography, and Turkey. WCQuidditch ☎ ✎ 04:29, 4 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Daniel (talk) 02:42, 11 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Keep based on discussion above, seems to meet WP:GNG and possibly the first criterion of WP:POPULATED but that's harder to establish. Being included in a respected specialist encyclopedia is also a good inclusive criteria considering WP:5. And I'll also echo P Aculeius's implicit reference of WP:NOTPAPER. —siro χ o 10:15, 11 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: I've expanded it a bit using the material I cited above. I thought about quoting it, but that's a Google Translate version of the text from PW and Polyaenus, edited a little by me for clarity—so I figured it'd be easier to summarize than trying to figure out how to cite as a translation. I didn't include all of the details, including the map citation, which mentions several locations I'm not sure whether to identify with the more recent geographical references. So there could be more material here—including whether the river mentioned with the map under "Hermaion" is the same as the Hermotus mentioned in PW. P Aculeius (talk) 05:23, 12 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Also the article should probably be moved to "Hermaion", with redirects from "Hermoton" and "Hermaeum". But that can wait until after this discussion is closed. P Aculeius (talk) 05:25, 12 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Keep per sources identified. Queen of Hearts ❤️ (no relation) 20:45, 14 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.