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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. Sources and quoted trivial mentions do not reach threshold required by WP:GNG or WP:ARTIST. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs(talk) 16:20, 29 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Hengameh Fouladvand[edit]

Hengameh Fouladvand (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log)
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(Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)

Way article is written creates conflict of interest concerns in my mind. However, I have insufficient knowledge in the field to know for sure that the person is notable or not. Hoping to hear from people who are familiar with the field during this discussion. --Nlu (talk) 10:29, 10 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

NB: COI does not justify an article's deletion. LFaraone 18:20, 17 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
In fact very few edits off this topic, and none at all until the preceding note about very few edits off this topic was posted.
  • Comment I have just re-read WP:ARTIST, and I see nothing there at all about being the chair of an organisation, nor about having "interactions" with notable people, organizations and publications. In fact notability is not inherited: we need evidence that Hengameh Fouladvand is notable in her own right, not that she has associated with people and organisations that are notable. JamesBWatson (talk) 09:30, 17 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
In fact 82.67.18.228 has made no edits at all off this topic, and Tarag's entire contributing history consists of two edits to one article on 22 March 2006.
    • Uh, Anglais, s.v.p.? --Nlu (talk) 23:56, 10 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
      • (translation of Tarag's statement - I have as yet no opinion) Every artist has her place in Wikipedia and Hengameh Fouladvand is a well-known artist who deserves to be here. Phil Bridger (talk) 22:18, 13 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Note: This debate has been included in the list of Visual arts-related deletion discussions. -- • Gene93k (talk) 01:15, 11 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep::Bokhara Quarterly (previously Kelk) and Tavoos Quarterly are the most prestigious literary magazines in Iran . Through the years, the chief editor of both quarterlies have conducted several interviews, and published Fouladvand's writings, among them a ten page interview with her several years back ( link is already included for both Kelk, and Tavoos) Fouladvand has hundreds of fans both in Iranian visual arts and for her poetry. Several years ago Encyclopedia Iranica (WP link available) chose 5 artists to promote its fund-raising activities around the world, by publishing their paintings as New Year greeting cards. Fouladvand was one of them. She should absolutely be included in Wikipedia. Febrahimi (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 18:51, 11 December 2010 (UTC).[reply]

*Febrahimi has no edits outside this topic.

  • Comment Unfortunately a publication which, as you say, has published her work, is not an independent source. We need evidence of coverage about her in sources which are not publishing work by her. Also, having hundreds of fans does not establish notability. For one thing, having fans is not the same as having published coverage. For another thing, a few hundred fans are not much: a high school magazine may well have a circulation of a few hundred, and the local sports teams in the village where I live have a few hundred fans, but they are not notable enough for a Wikipedia article. JamesBWatson (talk) 09:30, 17 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment WP guidelines (not policy) includes mainstream news media and major academic journals. It does not require them to be American sources, and excludes self-published sources, particularly when self-published on the internet. List of newspapers and media coverage of her is included in profile section. Please show me which source used in the article is self-published? WP Sources: “should be independent” describing a topic from a disinterested perspective. For example, an independent source would be newspaper coverage. All sources given here are independent and reliable. These are various sources describing her artistic style and commenting on Fouladvand’s work, independent of each other. Please see newspapers and lists of media.--Febrahimi (talk) 14:55, 17 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete The subject has appeared at conferences and written about art. She has participated in group exhibitions [1]. This isn't enough to meet WP:ARTIST. Nor is the selection of her work for greetings cards. There are plenty of online listings, but not the significant coverage required by WP:N.--Ethicoaestheticist (talk) 01:23, 12 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep. I am the original contributor of this article. I just added all the solo shows of this artist, AGAIN. I don't know why some one deleted her major shows as a clean up! Fouladvand is notable and is among the most important Iranian contemporary visual artists. Inquire about any well known Iranian artists in the U.S and Fouladvand's name will be mentioned. She is included in most major visual art activities of diaspora in the U.S. Fouladvand has had numerous SOLO shows through the years. She has also exhibited with the world famous Siah Armajani who designed the U.S Olymic Torch, Iran Darrudi, Monir Farmanfarmaian, and Ardeshir Mohasses, all Internationally known Iranian artists. Dr. Becket (talk) 03:29, 12 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comment. Exhibitions in commercial galleries, airports, corporate headquarters etc. aren't significant. CIMA sounds like a museum, but I'm not convinced. It doesn't seem to be a gallery at all. Its address is a PO box at Grand Central Station.--Ethicoaestheticist (talk) 22:19, 12 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comment. Considering that Iranian artists in the U.S are a diaspora group who normally don't enjoy the same opportunities, as the main stream artists do, I found several reliable sources according to Wikipedia's guidelines, those being mainstream news media and academic journals which meets the notability criteria for Fouladvand I will include in the page. --Febrahimi (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 01:45, 14 December 2010 (UTC).[reply]
  • Comment Wikipedia's notability criteria are the same for everyone. If an artist is a member of a diaspora group which does not get much attention or coverage, then that artist has not got much independent coverage, which means there is not much notability according to Wikipedia's guidelines. The fact that the limited amount of coverage is explained by the circumstances does not in any way invalidate the fact that there is little coverage. Someone who doesn't get "the same opportunities" to gain notability as others is less likely to be notable than those others. In other words, we need substantial coverage in reliable sources, not coverage which is "as substantial as it might be considering the person is in such an obscure situation with such poor opportunities to get noticed". JamesBWatson (talk) 09:30, 17 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment Goodwill requires "avoiding arbitrary deletion of others' work", specially when such person has been exhibiting her work for more than 25 years, is published, is cited in major scholarly journals, and is a notable person in the community. If we follow your opinion based on your view, all the minority and diaspora artists and notable people from the Third World Countries who are reviewed by their own major newspapers and mass media should be deleted because you don’t recognize those sources. Please read "More on Wikability", a critical article by Timothy Noah for Slate.com, published March 1, 2007.
There is “general interest” to know about the life and career of such an artist, and according to WP: “the interest of enough people is a necessary condition for article inclusion”. “Iranians” as a group are interested to know about such person otherwise she would not be covered in major news media. According to WP Notablity , one should be "worthy of notice". Fouladvand meets that category..--Febrahimi (talk) 15:01, 17 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Keep I'm convinced by the number of sources in the article and the arguments made above, though the article could use some clean-up really. Esn (talk) 03:02, 15 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Weak Delete: I dont think the sources can pass WP:RS. Spada II ♪♫ (talk) 08:38, 15 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Weak Delete There are two print sources listed; if she is covered in them as more than just a paragraph or so she might possibly be notable: Iran Today: An Encyclopedia of Life in the Islamic Republic, (ref 8 in the article) and Contemporary Iranian Arts and Visual Culture: Kitsch, Avant-garde, and Exile. Chapter 3: The Exile, Illustration #115, London: Reaktion Books, 2011 (ref 22 in the article) --but for this one the reference indicates it might just be an illustration and a caption. It seems to me that the sources seem generally to talk about all Iranian-American visual artists, and are therefore not discriminating enough. The shows at Center for Iranian Modern Art might be enough also, but there web page [2] does not indicate selectivity either., so I do not consider the two solo exhibitions there as significant enough. What is needed here is evidence of one or two paintings in major museums, or a published substantial discussion of her work.
  • Comment: A professor Talinn Grigor of MIT has written in depth about Fouladvand"s life and career which is forthcoming. Also Who's Who In America, Who's Who in American Art, The Encyclopedia of Living Artists, and The 1988 New York Art Review cover her life story, artistic style and career history. I have included these information in the article. In writing articles about Living persons the several books that cover her style and life story plus the fact that she is published in prominent scholarly journals and major newspapers, exhibited her work extensively and is the executive director of an organization are more than enough to prove someone is notable and worthy to be covered in a WP article. Dr. Becket (talk) 02:14, 18 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Spartaz Humbug! 06:12, 18 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Relisted to discuss these recent sources that do no appear to be independantly verifiable on-line. Spartaz Humbug! 06:13, 18 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comment I think that it's better that Dr. Becket scan and upload these reliable sources somewhere on the web, so others can justify them.Farhikht (talk) 12:00, 18 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment Please note: The sources are from Yahoo and Google searches, Hengameh Fouladvand’s public pages, Center for Iranian Modern Arts’ site, and Talinn Grigor’s Bransise University website. Dr. Becket (talk) 16:34, 18 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
But sources from Center for Iranian Modern Arts is not independent from the subject, as she is the Executive Director of this center. And in Talinn Grigor's page I couldn't find her name.Farhikht (talk) 11:49, 19 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment, WP:N Guidelines:“Notability requires only the existence of suitable reliable sources, not their immediate citation.”,“If it is likely that significant coverage in independent sources can be found, deletion due to lack of notability is inappropriate.”
  • Comment Most importantly, Hengameh Fouladvand is a scholar who has served on Editorial Board of major scholarly magazine (Tavoos Quarterly)and meets not only one but two Notability Guidelines for academics: “Director of a notable center (which is not a part of a University)Dr. Becket (talk) 14:50, 19 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep - no need to delete unless Wikipedia is running out of space for foreigners. Is non-notability so obvious that it's worth wasting the amount of time and goodwill that the proposal for deletion appears to have inspired? Opbeith (talk) 19:15, 18 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Note that I asked DGG to look at the sources as he has access to a lot of offline sources. Please see his commentary. Spartaz Humbug! 16:30, 19 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment DGG search noted. I deleted all the old Who's Who references from the article. Could DGG confirm Fouladvand has been one of the editors of the Tavoos Quarterly Journals since 1999, before the magazine went on line. Dr. Becket (talk) 21:50, 19 December 2010 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dr. Becket (talk • contribs) 21:18, 19 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep: Seems to me there is sufficient referenced evidence to indicate notability. (Msrasnw (talk) 11:05, 20 December 2010 (UTC))[reply]
  • Delete. None one of the sources in the page passes muster. They are either not independent, or fail to even mention the subject. Not a single source analyzes the subject. Abductive (reasoning) 10:44, 23 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment: Let us find the right sources then. i.e printed Tavoos Bilingual issues , Kelk magazine links, her published poems , link to her essays and catalogs, and paintings on different sights and print materials. An article should not be deleted for being un-sourced. There are old print sources that we just don't have access to. The failure not to improve an article is not a reason for deletion. This article may need to be edited and problems resolved, but it should not be deleted. The un-sourced information that have to be corrected should never be reasons for deletion.--Febrahimi (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 00:01, 24 December 2010 (UTC).[reply]
    • Lack of reliable sources might not be a reason to delete, but nor should it be an excuse to keep. The question still comes down to: is she notable, and is her notability shown by reliable sources? --Nlu (talk) 11:32, 24 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment: however much political controversy may be attached to Middle East Studies Association of North America MESA is nevertheless a significant professional body. As executive director of the Center for Iranian Modern Arts, NY, Fouladvand has been chair of one of the sessions of MESA's annual conference programme on at least one occasion[3]. Common sense suggests that there's no need to waste time discussing deletion when there are so many other more productive tasks left undone. Just imagine if all the effort that went into this discussion and the background ef had gone into article backlog clean-up/wikification. No good imagining, it will never happen. But proposers of AfD should be required to put down a deposit of a commitment to wikification of ten articles in need, deposit returnable in the event of 75% agreed Deletes, 50% returnable for 50% agreement. Opbeith (talk) 12:30, 25 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment: Here are the links to three other years Fouladvand has been a Chair at Middle East Studies Association of North America: 2008 Program, Session III, Sunday, November 23, 11:00am-1:00pm (NP61), http://www.mesa.arizona.edu/annual/08mtg/sun11.htm 2009 Sunday, 11/22/09 4:30pm [P2275] http://mymesa.arizona.edu/meeting_program_session.php?sid=f4a7148bd4e10db64c7c8a6c74061fed 2010 Saturday, 11/20/10 02:30pm [P2563]http://mymesa.arizona.edu/meeting_program_session.php?sid=d0f076572aff987bb28e987e5e06bdac — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dr. Becket (talk • contribs) 00:28, 26 December 2010 (UTC) Dr. Becket (talk) 00:36, 26 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
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