Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Harvest (band)

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep.--Wafulz 13:35, 22 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Harvest (band)[edit]

This article is essentially the work of a single editor, who has in addition to this article contributed: a category for wikipedians who listen to this band (containing one entry, himself), a userbox for people who listen to this band (used by one editor, himself), a number of links to this band form other articles and... well, nothign other than promotion of this band. Which might just be forgivable zeal, but looks a lot like conflict of ionterest when you realise that he also uploaded samples of virtually every song they ever recorded, and that the article lacks any proper independent sourcing, all the external links are projects of the members or their publishers. I tried the google test, but it's a hopeless mess due to the near-generic name. I don't see evidence of significance here, I'm afraid. I also cannot find any of their songs in my admittedly rather staid collection of Christian music, which runs to about 1,500 songs in various collections. Guy (Help!) 20:21, 13 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Delete I agree. I visited the user's userpage and saw that userbox. I thought they made some markup code in their own space, but looking closer it wasn't. I've also attempted the Google test, but nothing. Wikidan829 20:44, 13 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Weak keep Well, apparently, we have an article for the group's founder, Jerry Williams that wasn't created by the same person.--Ispy1981 20:49, 13 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Delete this article and those of the band members unless much better references are added to prove that this band is notable under the terms of WP:Band by the end of this AfD. A1octopus 22:34, 13 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Keep Regarding the comments by User:JzG:

Yes, so far, I have essentially been the editor of this article. However, I would argue that the page was just created this year (2007). I would hope more time would be given for other fans of the band to find the article and to begin to edit it also.

Yes, I created the category for wikipedians who listen to the band. Again, I would hope that more time would be given for other fans of the band to find the article. If they are not Wikipedians already, they would then need time to find that it is possible for one to belong to this category. If the category is in dispute, should it not be the category that is up for potential deletion?

Yes, I created the userbox for the band, and yes, I am the only one using it, for now. Was this a violation of a policy on Wikipedia? If the userbox is in dispute, should it not be the userbox up for potential deletion?

Yes, there are links to the article from other Wikipedia pages. I believe this is a good way for others to link to the article. I don't believe the article violates any policies in this regard.

I disagree with User:JzG regarding his statement that the article is "nothing other than promotion of this band." I attempted to write the article in an encyclopedic form, not in a manner that was promotional.

User:JzG also commented: ". . . he also uploaded samples of virtually every song they ever recorded . . ." I respond that I did upload a great number of songs onto Wikipedia to be used in the article. At the time, I believed that the songs were allowed as part of the Discography section. I have just learned recently of my error in this regard. User:Moe was helpful in editing the Harvest page into conformance with Wikipedia's non-free content criteria, namely #3a and 8.

Regarding the comment: "the article lacks any proper independent sourcing, all the external links are projects of the members or their publishers", I would argue that this is untrue. The first reference used in the article is from the magazine "The Lighthouse". The Lighthouse is neither a project of the members or their publishers, but is independent from both. The second reference used is from CBN's "The 700 Club." This source is also independent of both the band members and their publishers. The third reference used is from "CCM" magazine, which again, is an independent source. Should I contact these three sources and get statements of their independence?

Referring to the "Google test": yes, it is difficult to look up Harvest with Google because of their name. In my opinion, the difficulty of finding information on Google because of a "near-generic name" shouldn't be grounds for deletion.

Regarding User:JzG being unable to find significance in the article: I would argue that the article is at least notable by way of WP:MUSIC "Criteria for musicians and ensembles" #1. I also believe the article is notable under other WP:MUSIC criteria, but the criteria states "A musician or ensemble (note that this includes a band, singer, rapper, orchestra, hip hop crew, DJ, musical theatre group, etc.) is notable if it meets any one [emphasis added] of the following criteria."

That User:JzG doesn't have any music by Harvest in his Christian collection is surely a weak argument, at best. I'm sure there are many significant bands that he listens to that I don't have in my own collection.

Regarding the comments by User:Wikidan829: please see my responses to User:JzG above regarding the userbox and the Google test.

Regarding the comment by User:A1octopus: please see my response to User:JzG above regarding WP:MUSIC criteria.

Thank you for hearing my arguments.

Jamie L. 22:41, 13 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I have added a fourth source to the article as well as additional text to the body. The fourth source is a video produced by the Discovery Broadcasting Network which makes the statement on its cover: "Averaging over 100 concerts a year, Jerry and Ed travel the nation singing songs from their last five album projects . . ." I believe that this statement proves that Harvest has met WP:MUSIC criteria #4. On this topic, I was personally at a concert of the band in Germany and would be surprised if this was their only concert in that country. Although I cannot prove (yet) that this was "reported in reliable sources", I thought I would raise this possibility that the group also toured in Germany.

Jamie L. 15:08, 14 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I just added a "Christian Radio Hits" section to the article. Contained within it are nine songs that achieved chart status. I obtained this information from the source "Encyclopedia of Contemporary Christian Music." According to the source, the chart hits information "is based on charts kept by SoundScan and published weekly in The CCM Update. Only information from the CHR (Christian Hit Radio) chart (or its predecessors) is included." I believe this proves Harvest meets WP:MUSIC criteria #2.

Jamie L. 22:42, 15 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Christianity-related deletions. -- John Vandenberg 00:20, 14 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Keep. This is a legit band, not a high-school garage band with only a MySpace page. Their 1995 album is available via both Amazon and eBay, so I'd say they're somewhat notable. eaolson 04:34, 14 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Keep and fix the sourcing, the band is signed to a record label and actually has a published album, which gets you through most of the notability hoops. -N 16:48, 15 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Er, have you looked at WP:MUSIC???Balloonman 20:18, 18 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Keep the article about the band and help the editor expand it and find sources and delete and transclude the template(s) used by a single editor for their userpage. This is a legit band that has a record label and albums, just enough for it to meet the usual standards. — Moe ε 06:34, 17 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Keep being signed to a label doesn't count. The criteria calls for multiple albums (2+) by one of the major labels or major independent labels. Or a GOLD album or international tour---or something meaningful. This group, does however meet the criteria because it does meet two criteria for WP:MUSIC

7. Has become the most prominent representative of a notable style ---in this case Christian Rock of the era.

Comment While I'd like to agree that Harvest meets WP:MUSIC criteria #7, I believe that there were other bands, such as Petra, Larry Norman, and Stryper, that were were more prominent in Christian Rock during Harvest's tenure. If you know of a source which argues for this criteria, please let me know. It would definitely strengthen the case for the band.Jamie L. 22:05, 18 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I' familiar with Petra/Stryper, never heard of Larry Norman---but I am pretty sure that I remember Harvest (in the 80's I did listened to CCM). They were a fairly pretty big group, but more on the melow side. If one of their albums is still available 12 years after being published, that is pretty impressive. Most non-notable groups may have an album released, but it takes something a little more to keep it on the shelves for 12 years.Balloonman 15:54, 20 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

5. Has released two or more albums on a major label or one of the more important indie labels---While their most notable label is Benson, Benson appears to be a major label within the genre.Balloonman 20:38, 18 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Keep per the above. --Myles Long 15:06, 19 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Keep - there are several 3rd-party sources verifying a marginally notable career, enough for an encyclopedic article. It does need to be cleaned up a bit. --Evb-wiki 14:12, 21 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.