Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/HIV/AIDS in North Korea

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was merge to Health in North Korea. I'm particularly intrigued by Keep - But please try and find some more reliable and realistic information. If you feel the information in the article isn't reliable, then I don't understand how you're arguing to keep it. In any case, there seems to be a clear consensus for a merge. -- RoySmith (talk) 13:38, 30 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

HIV/AIDS in North Korea

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There seems to be no evidence there is a problem with HIV/AIDS in North Korea, and there doesn't seem anyone out there suggesting there is. This article is not informative or notable. Of course, this would change if there was a problem, but the article should be created then, not in anticipation. Jack Upland (talk) 10:10, 15 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Korea-related deletion discussions. Gabe Iglesia (talk) 12:15, 15 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Medicine-related deletion discussions. MT Train^Talk 12:47, 15 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Speedy Keep: Article talks about HIV/AIDS in North Korea and is supported by sourced material. The title of the article doesn't indicate there's a problem of HIV/AIDS in the country, so there's no assumption to be made. World AIDS Day is reportedly observed, the government has spent money related to HIV/AIDS, etc. GodsPlaaaaan (talk) 16:10, 15 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Merge to Health in North Korea, more as an editorial opinion than a deletion one. This article primarily is boilerplate on AIDS in general, and a lot of different ways of saying that there is no AIDS in the country, according to the government of North Korea. power~enwiki (π, ν) 00:31, 16 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, merge is a better option.--Jack Upland (talk) 09:23, 16 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Keep. As noted by GodsPlaaaaan, the topic is HIV/AIDS in North Korea and does not purport to be HIV/AIDS epidemic in North Korea, for no such thing exists. Epidemiology of HIV/AIDS is such a well-research subject that it generates significant coverage even in places where prevalence is low (see e.g. HIV/AIDS in Australia where the UNAIDS estimate is 0.1%, even lower than North Korea's). Sourcing makes this article too a WP:GNG worthy topic that can stand on its own. I regret that others have found the article to be uninformative, but I have to disagree. Sourcing is on such a reliable and neutral footing that there's hardly any scandal here. In topics like this North Korea is, to paraphrase Bruce Cumings, just another normal country. Personally I think the article makes insightful distinctions rather than self-evident claims: e.g. testing is available but antiretroviral therapy is not given, legislation increases stigmatization, awareness is relatively high but hospital practices are lacking. For every country the situation is unique.

power~enwiki, what is your editorial judgement in favor of merging based on? The way I see it, none of the WP:MERGEREASONs are met, whereas arguably all of the "merging should be avoided" reasons are. At 4.5kb of readable prose size and having been upgraded from Start to C-class, this article is not the sort of sub-stub that should be merged based on size per WP:MERGEREASON and WP:SIZERULE. It's a distinct sub topic of both Health in North Korea and Epidemiology of HIV/AIDS; there's no risk that the scope of either of the two articles would become confused with this one if all are left to stand on their own on separate pages. Enough context is given for the reader to figure out what the topic is about provided that they know what HIV/AIDS and North Korea are.

Full disclosure: I'm the initial creator and (the only) major contributor of this article. – Finnusertop (talk ⋅ contribs) 17:55, 16 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Australia had a problem with HIV/AIDS which it got under control. By contrast, according to the government, North Korea has no cases of HIV/AIDS and never had any cases. There seems no reason to doubt this, given the information here. The article relies a lot on a brief Australian news report from 2001 which suggests that HIV/AIDS is a "coming problem". Almost 20 years on, there is no evidence that this has eventuated. The CIA World Factbook, the UNAIDS factsheet 2016, and the WHO office in North Korea report no cases. The talk about the cross-border sex trade seems to be speculative. Overall, the expectation that North Korea was going to have a problem seems to have been based on the experience in other Asian countries, rather than facts in North Korea. North Korea's "observance" of World Aids Day seems limited to having a meeting with WHO and others and proclaiming that it has no AIDS patients. The last report of North Korea doing this was 2015. It seems to perverse to have an article about a disease in a country when there have never been any known cases.--Jack Upland (talk) 04:52, 17 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Keep Leaning keep on this one, although I admit merge is an appealing option. There are only so many ways to say "There are not that many cases — WHO says 100 — but DPRK says there are none" in a given article, so perhaps it's more reasonable to include in the Health page. Still, there's enough coverage to suggest the article is reasonable. Moreover, I think it's a very reasonable place to discuss Kim's claims that he invented a cure for AIDS, which has been covered extensively (e.g., [1]). Merge ain't bad but I think we can keep this. ~ Amory (u • t • c) 18:43, 20 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry to be pedantic, but WHO does not say there are 100 cases, and Kim does not claim the he invented a cure for AIDS, and there is no suggestion that the drug is used in North Korea, which is what this article is supposed to be about.--Jack Upland (talk) 20:47, 20 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Merge - Seems a better fit for Health in North Korea as power~enwiki suggests. There also seem to be way to many primary sources listed. PackMecEng (talk) 13:39, 21 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Keep - But please try and find some more reliable and realistic information, I sincerely doubt that there are only 700 AIDS related deaths in North Korea. ELH.Peace

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Sandstein 21:53, 22 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

ELH.Peace, the article does have something like the best available information, as far I can tell. There just isn't much evidence of HIV/AIDS in North Korea. As noted above, the World Health Organisation office in Pyongyang says there are currently NO cases. As the article notes, the estimate of 700 deaths annually is probably an overstatement, and that comes from 2004. Just because information doesn't gel with your "sincere" gut feeling doesn't make it wrong.--Jack Upland (talk) 07:39, 25 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Merge to Health in North Korea - this is badly sourced not to mention ignoring RELTIME in key spots. Importantly there is not much independent information on this, so the topic should not get the WEIGHT of a whole page. Jytdog (talk) 15:30, 29 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.