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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was Keep. Clearly there is no consensus to delete, as aside from the nominator only one other editor has expressed a desire for deletion. Whether or not to merge the content to Griffith University is an editorial decision and discussion of any such proposal is best conducted on the article's talk page. (non-admin close) RMHED (talk) 19:17, 27 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Griffith University Law School

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Griffith University Law School (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View log)

fails WP:CORP notability not established from independent sources Michellecrisp (talk) 14:50, 21 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comment Agree with above, there is no general rule about medical or law schools being more notable than other parts of a university. This has to be assessed on a case a case basis. In Australia, law and medical schools generally fall under Faculties and are no more autonomous than say an engineering school. Michellecrisp (talk) 05:51, 22 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

A company, corporation, organization, team, religion, group, product, or service is notable if it has been the subject of significant coverage in secondary sources. Such sources must be reliable, and independent of the subject. The depth of coverage of the subject by the source must be considered. If the depth of coverage is not substantial, then multiple independent sources should be cited to establish notability

  • Comment I have checked the Social Sciences Research Network and found the law school is #74 in the list of 100 Top International Law Schools. I believe this is measured by reference to impact (citations, etc.) of faculty scholarship. I'll add this independent source directly to the article.Osloinsummertime (talk) 08:42, 22 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep as notable in its own right. Satisfys WP:N.--Sting Buzz Me... 10:50, 22 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep - I fail to see why this came here. We don't delete tertiary, degree awarding bodies and the question of a possible merge to the parent university is a matter for a separate editorial action for which AfD is inappropriate. TerriersFan (talk) 15:38, 22 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment it is not a standalone school. If the above argument is true then it follows then every school of Griffith University and every university should have its own article, clearly WP:CORP must be satisfied first. There seems to be some misconception here that this law school is like a North American law school. In Australia, that is rarely the case, as they are predominantly undergraduate (often with students doing combined degrees with other schools), and are no more autonomous than saw an engineering school or psychology department. Michellecrisp (talk) 00:29, 23 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment What happened to favouring case-by-case reasoning, Michelle? As I said, the website shows that the school is a graduate school in large part. But why does that even matter? More important, since not a single person here (besides Michelle) has said this site should be deleted, I added a "close" tag. The guidelines suggested this was appropriate. Michelle has erased the tag. Can anyone advise what is appropriate as there is no consensus favouring deletion? (While you are at it, Michelle and I seem to disagree about whether the notability tag on the article should remain. Since this debate began I changed the article to add a very important third party source establishing notability. Is it safe to say, now, that we should simply leave the site alone and turn to debating the notability of other articles now?Osloinsummertime (talk) 01:03, 23 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment A number of editors, including myself, have voted to merge this with the article on the uni, which is pretty much the same as deletion as the article will become a redirect. It seems that the 'all schools are notable' crowd is charging into this debate, and I doubt that they have much knowledge of how Australian universities are run (eg, that this is a university department rather than an independant 'school' and that it doesn't award its own degrees and post-graduate qualifications). The schools deletion sorting list is becoming a bit of a problem, IMO, as any nominations of post-primary schools attracts the same faces asserting that the school is notable. Nick Dowling (talk) 10:50, 23 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
As do Adelaide, Melbourne, Sydney and UWS. WWGB (talk) 06:21, 23 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
This article seems similar to Deakin Law School. the others have notability more clearly established especially through a list of many notable alumni. Michellecrisp (talk) 06:23, 23 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment Michelle, my point about refutation is this: When you present an argument, and I then argue it is wrong, it's good form either to drop the argument or keep at it only after refuting my counter-argument. As it is, I believe you are repeating points without acknowledging their weaknesses. For example, why persist with the "notable alumni" line of argument (which, in my opinion, is arbitrary) while ignoring the independent citation I added (which, as I argued and you ignored, is a very solid source)? There is not much sense in that. Osloinsummertime (talk) 10:44, 23 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comment It might be appropriate to distinguish between Australian law schools originating in the 19C, the 1960's and the 1990's. It is unreasonable to expect law schools founded in the 1990s, such as UWS School of Law or the other two already mentioned, to number high court judges or ambassadors amongst their alumni. The Faculty of Law, Cambridge lists no alumni; there is no article on the faculty of law at the University of Oxford although there is one on the undergraduate Oxford Law Society. There appear to be no hard and fast rules. Mathsci (talk) 11:01, 23 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

  • Delete Law schools arent inherently notable, some may indeed be notable, this one most certainly isnt. It fails WP:CORP. The lack of reliable third-party sources is certainly a worry. Redirect the page to Griffith University, with the option to recreate if significant third-party sources can be found. Five Years 06:01, 24 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • There are three references for this article: the speech - which appears to be incidental coverage, a somewhat relevant piece on indigenous education at the law school, and a piece which is restricted. Im simply not convinced that this is sufficient to base an article on. Five Years 13:45, 24 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • The 'restricted' piece is the important one. I believe it's not actually restricted; you can get a free log in identity. In any case, not all WP references have to be free and open to all like WP itself is.Osloinsummertime (talk) 21:23, 24 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
WP:SYN is a problem here - its "notability" is stitched together from three entirely unrelated sources, two of which do not strictly speaking meet WP:RS. Orderinchaos 16:43, 25 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
They seem on their face related to notability; it is your onus to explain why they aren't. It isn't at all clear how they're "unrelated" (to each other? to notability?) much less that they are entirely so. The citation to WP:SYN and assertion of "stitching" are similarly conclusory, presented without any backing.Osloinsummertime (talk) 07:52, 26 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Incorrect - notability must be asserted - it is always the onus of whoever wants the content to justify its addition or retention. This is a fairly fundamental principle on Wikipedia and I'm genuinely surprised to see someone attempting to argue the reverse. Orderinchaos 10:18, 26 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Right. What I'm saying is, having already asserted a justification (ie. the citations) at my end, the onus in the present context is now on you to explain why it doesn't work, using more than conclusory assertion. It is always your onus to back up what you say. Osloinsummertime (talk) 08:41, 27 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
In Australia (and I've been a student for a fairly long time, and did once study law) Departments are within Schools which are within Faculties which are (at some places) within Divisions. There's *dozens* of "schools" within any University. In fact, their website tells me: "Griffith University has 46 schools and faculties, organised into ten study areas." Among others included is the Griffith School of Environment. This site confirms that in order to enrol you enrol through the State tertiary admissions centre into the University under the law programme, so you're not in fact a student of a separate school if successful. Orderinchaos 00:41, 25 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I don't know that I follow your reasoning. The bottom line is that Griffith Law School is a law school, no more or less than any other law school. Law schools have special prestige status within most universities where they are present and, most importantly, have the formal status allowing them to confer professional qualifications. Osloinsummertime (talk) 14:20, 25 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
"Special prestige status"? Clear original research. It is not a separate law school, it is very much part of Griffith University, just as its School of Environment is part of Griffith University, and the School of Arts at the university I presently study at is part of that venerable institution. This is a very different situation to that found outside of Australia, where separate law schools do indeed exist. This seems like some grown-up version of schoolcruft trying to rear its ugly head here. Orderinchaos 16:42, 25 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Perhaps your school is worthy of inclusion on WP too; I can't see how separateness matters to notability. There is already ample evidence on WP that law schools in Australia are unique, separate, what have you; but again, the question of "separateness" is an irrelevancy. Osloinsummertime (talk) 22:10, 25 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Much of the content needs to be either edited out or trimmed down, so I don't think this is a problem. I personally think the other "precedents" (note WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS as an invalid ground for argument) should be deleted too. Orderinchaos 11:40, 25 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
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