Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Gallaway, California
- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was delete. Based on the discussion here, I see a good argument to expand the history at Schooner Gulch State Beach, but not any indication that this name in particular referred to a "settlement", which means GEOLAND is not met. ♠PMC♠ (talk) 22:33, 6 May 2021 (UTC)
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- Gallaway, California (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log)
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It's not clear why this isn't sourced to USGS topos, because the spot is labelled "Gallaway" going far back— except when it's labelled "Galloway", and on top of that, mostly it's labelled "Gallaway/Galloway School". As far as I can tell, the school is the only thing that was ever there at this location, and while I can find the usual references as such, that's about it. There is a Galloway Creek adjacent to the spot, and some geological references, but nothing says this was a settlement of any sort. Mangoe (talk) 03:33, 29 April 2021 (UTC)
Delete(changing to Not sure yet. 20:06, 29 April 2021 (UTC)) It does not appear to be a populated place (if it ever was), as Google Maps shows no buildings. It's not clear that it was ever a place under that name. The single ref for that is the U.S. Geological Survey Geographic Names Information System. I suppose that's usually accurate, but nothing's 100% accurate. It's wrong when it says it's a "populated place", because it's not. If it's wrong about that, it could be wrong about the rest. And I think it is. (However, Google Maps does label the area as "Gallaway", so there's that.)However, Schooner Gulch is a place. It was in what is now Schooner Gulch State Beach. It was very close to the coordinates given for Gallaway, California -- practically coterminous. And there were people there. It says here that that the Galloway School was in Schooner Beach. This also says the Gallaway School was in Schooner Beach.
Schooner Gulch was founded by John Gallaway (he also gave the land for the school), and my guess is that "Schooner Gulch" and "Galloway's Place" (--> "Galloway") were two names for the same thing. There just isn't enough there for us to say that "Galloway" was ever a place, and it's certainly not populated now. The material for Schooner Gulch and the school (there ain't much) could be put in the Schooner Gulch State Park article I guess, if anyone wants to. Herostratus (talk) 05:32, 29 April 2021 (UTC)
- Galloway school district is in Lyman L. Palmer's History of Mendocino County on page 154. Carpenter's and Millbury's History of Mendocino and Lake Counties, California has the 1869 mill in Galloway Gulch, distinct from Schooner Gulch, on pages 42 and 43. Palmer also has the presence of the Nobles family from 1876. It appears to be the early 20th century geologists who introduced the Gallaway spelling, when they documented the Gallaway Formation, and at the same time spelled Schooner as Skooner, both spellings used by one C. E. Weaver in the 1940s and corrected by later geological reports (see Addicott "Age of the Skooner Gulch Formation" Geological Survey Bulletin, Issue 1254, footnote on spelling on page C2 for correction to Schooner, later 1980s reports correct Weaver's Gallaway). Schooner Gulch effectively took over the area, but before it was a state park the Galloway creek and the mudstone coastal Galloway formation was distinct from sandstone Schooner Gulch to geologists (c.f. Addicott, which has a map).
Saving the best for last, though: There's a hidden gem in a Bureau of Labor Statistics 1887 report to the California State Legislature that has a 170 page county-by-county review of the places in California, which in the section on Mendocino lists Galloway under "Other towns" on page 222. So it was a town in the 19th century.
Uncle G (talk) 11:22, 29 April 2021 (UTC)
- If it's just a name in a list, I'm not inclined to take the last too seriously. It's a classic situation in which the problems were are trying to sort out arise: a document compiled for other purposes, the author of which is working from maps or listings and just assumes that names are towns or whatever. Mangoe (talk) 14:50, 29 April 2021 (UTC)
- More probably, given that this is a labour statistics report, xe is working from surveyed data; and it seems unlikely that labour statistics are reported from a place where there are no people. ☺ Uncle G (talk) 09:22, 30 April 2021 (UTC)
- If it's just a name in a list, I'm not inclined to take the last too seriously. It's a classic situation in which the problems were are trying to sort out arise: a document compiled for other purposes, the author of which is working from maps or listings and just assumes that names are towns or whatever. Mangoe (talk) 14:50, 29 April 2021 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Geography-related deletion discussions. Mangoe (talk) 14:54, 29 April 2021 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of California-related deletion discussions. Mangoe (talk) 14:54, 29 April 2021 (UTC)
- This discusses the Gallaway School, and states that the land was farmed after the school was closed. This gives the boundaries of the school district, and says that it had 46 students in 1880. This from 1914 mentions a mill. This lists it in other towns, and is presumably what Uncle G found. Found a bit about the school, quite a bit about the geological formation, a bit about the creek, and some stuff for a ranch near Cloverdale that's in the wrong county. On the whole, I'm leaning delete, unless significant coverage of this place as a town can be found. Right now, all we can write about this is Gallaway (also spelled Galloway) appears in an 1887 list of towns in Mendocino County. The Galloway School was active from 1870 to 1936, and was located on land donated by the Gallaways. After the school closed, the land was used as farmground. And I'm not convinced we can really build an article from that. Hog Farm Talk 16:16, 29 April 2021 (UTC)
- I think that there is. I mean, here at web site for the park (published by the California Department of Parks and Recreation) we have:
Historically, Schooner Gulch is within the territory of the coastal branch of the Central Pomo Indians which extends from the mouth of the Navarro River to the mouth of the Gualala River. This area was frequented by Russians and native Alaskan hunters as early as 1812, and by Mexican land owners in the 1840's. John Galloway was the first recorded occupant of the area. John was born in Scotland and occupied an area of Schooner Gulch between 1866 and 1868, which was largely used as a milling operation for timber. Logging continued at Schooner Gulch until the late 1800's, through various other milling operations. Another interesting part of the history of Schooner Gulch is the Galloway School. The school land was donated by John and Margaret Galloway. Galloway School operated for 62 years, from 1874 to 1936 with never more than 40 students. In 1940 the school lot was sold, and land around the lot was farmed by the Nobles family until 1986 at which time the land was sold to the State of California. Legend has it that Schooner Gulch got its name from a story in which a schooner was sited, one evening, stranded on the beach in the mouth of the gulch, yet in the morning showed no evidence of being there.
Just right there is the basis for a small article, and then you've got those passages from the book and there's other stuff.
My question is, what is the place called. Schooner/Skooner Gulch, or Galloway/Gallaway, or what? Are these two separate things, or just two different names for the same thing? (If the latter, I'm OK with flipping a coin and being like "Schooner Gulch, also called Galloway, was..." or vice versa.) BTW Schooner Gulch is also the name of the actual gulch there.
Also, there is a populated area at the intersection of Schooner Gulch Road and Ten Mile Cut Off Road, which is about two miles inland, 38°53'03.1"N 123°36'46.5"W. I don't know what it is called, if anything. Galloway, for all I know. It looks like (not sure) that both that settlement and Schooner Gulch/Galloway are, administratively, inside the town of Point Arena (which the main town is about 2.5 up the coast). Mnmh from here:
The map of the coast is thickly marked with names, but most of them relate to lumbering settlements that have vanished with the marketable timber of the immediate locality. Some of these tiny places bore odd names: for instance, during the morning I passed Rough and Ready, and Hard Scratch. Others, less striking but more attractive, were Anchor Bay, Signal Port, Fish Rock, and Schooner Gulch.
Hmmmmm, well now here is a big long history of some Russian immigrants... it has
... They were bringing from Point Arena their big traction engines with which they expect to do their plowing, the weight of one engine being about eight tons. Arriving at Schooner Gulch, three miles out from Point Arena, the lead engine with the water truck crashed down the bridge and turned over in the stream. The engineer, with the fireman, jumped, but Nicholas Pogsikoff, who was walking between the engine and the water truck, was instantly killed. ...
Schooner Gulch is about three miles away from Point Arena, to the south. But then in the same article we have
"Tragedy first struck while the tractors were being driven down from Point Arena. The old bridge across Schooner Gulch collapsed while one of the 8-ton engines was crossing, killing the colony member walking alongside. They buried him on a bluff and surrounded his grave with a ring of white stones now gone, but The Sea Ranch has placed a marker near the location.
Looks like the same incident. BUT, "placed a marker" has a link, and it goes to 38°44'37.0"N 123°30'53.7"W. Which is almost ten miles south of Schooner Gulch/Galloway. So that's odd. But then, the marker is smack dab in the middle of Sea Ranch, California who are fancy people and maybe they just wanted a cool marker there. 8 miles is "nearby" if you squint and are trying to look all historical and all, I guess. (I can see the marker on google street view but I can't read it.)
Seems unlikely that there's be two different gulches name Schooner Gulch in the immediate area, but maybe. Or maybe the source is wrong or confused. There are some other sources out there I think but I'll stop for now.
One thing is for sure: it's not a populated place now, so we're not required to have an article on it if we don't want. Herostratus (talk) 20:06, 29 April 2021 (UTC)
- That's an argument for having a lot more about the history prior to the 1980s in Schooner Gulch State Beach. ☺ It's also why I mentioned the Nobles, pointing to where we can source their history to the sorts of histories where, probably, the state park blurb writers themselves sourced their information from. Moreover, I had already answered the question about the spelling, above. Uncle G (talk) 09:22, 30 April 2021 (UTC)
- I think that there is. I mean, here at web site for the park (published by the California Department of Parks and Recreation) we have:
- Delete, I was reading comments others have made. But I've came to the conclusion that there isn't a lot of verifiable citations to classify it as a community. However, if its intended to be kept, you could possibly rename it to 'Schooner Gulch'. Interestingly, this citation of an archive I found lists Schooner Gulch/Gallaway as part of Point Arena.[1] Thanks. JayzBox (talk) 07:28, 30 April 2021 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.