Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Festival-day

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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. Despite the verbosity of some editors in this discussion, the consensus here is delete. No prejudice against the creation of an appropriate redirect as that can be an editorial choice. Mkdwtalk 05:32, 30 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Festival-day[edit]

Festival-day (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log · Stats)
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1. Fork of Jewish holidays. 2. Non-existent English term "Festival-days". 3. Factually incorrect (see no need to elaborate here, since that pertains to the article proper, but it comes down to not including Yom Kippur and Simchat Torah). Debresser (talk) 09:41, 22 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

That is a disingenuous argument, User:Debresser, since every orthodox Jew knows that the word "Festival-day" (Yom Tov) is used in Hebrew to describe only six specific days in the Jewish calendar; no more and no less, excepting the additional Yom Tov prescribed for Jews resident abroad. To prove this, why not ask other Orthodox Jews here to confirm what I have said, such as User:IZAK,among others. Quoting directly from Maimonides' Code of Jewish Law (Seder Zemanim, Shevitat Yom-Tov 1:1), we read:

ששת הימים האלו שאסרן הכתוב בעשיית מלאכה שהן ראשון ושביעי של פסח, וראשון ושמיני של חג הסוכות, וביום חג השבועות, ובאחד לחודש השביעי הן הנקראין ימים טובים. ושביתת כולן שווה, שהן אסורין בכל מלאכת עבודה, חוץ ממלאכה שהיא לצורך אכילה, שנאמר אך אשר יאכל לכל נפש ---- which, translated, means: "These six days that are prohibited by the Scripture from doing labour therein, being the first and seventh days of Passover, the first and eighth days of the Feast of Booths, and on the day of Shavuot, and on the first day of the seventh month, they are called Festival-days. The cessation of labour in all of them is equal, since it is forbidden to do in them any kind of physical labour, except that labour which is needed for eating, as it says: 'Only that which shall be eaten by any person', etc." ---Davidbena (talk) 14:14, 22 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

reason #2 seems weak, I've found the term in a lot of references referring to Jewish holidays. I don't know about reason #3 but reason #1 seems to be strong as at least some of the content is replicated. I therefore think it is probably a WP:REDUNDANTFORK and should be deleted. JMWt (talk) 10:19, 22 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
"Festival-day" with a dash? If you mean without a dash, well, isn't that the same as "holiday"? Debresser (talk) 10:39, 22 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I could add that the article implies that "Festival-day"s is something that exists only in Judaism. That is incorrect. That is reason #4 for deletion, or at least a rename. Debresser (talk) 10:41, 22 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

That presents no problem, User:Debresser, as the word "Jewish" can be placed in parentheses after the word "Festival-day" in the title so as to distinguish it from other non-Jewish festival days.Davidbena (talk) 13:52, 22 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
It is without question that this article should NOT be deleted, for the simple fact that there is presently no article on Wikipedia describing the Jewish "Festival-day," as described in rabbinic literature. In orthodox Jewish law, a "Festival-day" (Hebrew: Yom Tov) cannot be construed with an ordinary holiday, such as Hanukkah and Purim, since labour is permitted on those days, but NOT on a "Festival-day." And there are many other distinguishing factors which put the bona-fide "Festival-day" in a category of its own.Davidbena (talk) 13:47, 22 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete there are articles for Jewish_holidays, for the Three_pilgrimage_festivals (which would be festival days) and we don't need one more superfluous one. I do understand the point that Hanukkah is not a "major" holiday, but that point is/or should be made in the articles already existing. We don't need another article to confuse readers. Sir Joseph (talk) 14:48, 22 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This debate has been included in the list of Judaism-related deletion discussions. Sir Joseph (talk) 14:48, 22 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete. Redundant to Jewish holidays. StevenJ81 (talk) 15:36, 22 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep That is incorrect, User:StevenJ81 and User:Sir Joseph, since there is no article which treats specifically on the Jewish technical term, "Festival-day." All other articles have conflated this issue with other Jewish holidays which are not "Festival-days" described in Mishnah Betzah (Yom-Tov). The "Festival-days" described in Mishnah Betzah are specific days, namely, the days mentioned in our article. There is no valid reason to delete our article. In fact, anyone checking the Jewish Encyclopedia will see that there is a distinction, as noted in our article.Davidbena (talk) 15:45, 22 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
That could be fixed with one sentence in the Jewish holidays article, that not every holiday is a major holiday where work is prohibited. The article Three_pilgrimage_festivals already exists which is what you are looking for. What you are proposing is a fork and is not needed. Your festival days is already covered. Sir Joseph (talk) 15:51, 22 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Absolutely. No need for this article. Debresser (talk) 16:04, 22 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Again, your reasoning is incorrect, since any qualified Rabbi can tell you that the word "Yom-Tov" in Hebrew (commonly translated as "Festival-day" in English) refers to a specific six days in the Jewish calendar, during which time labour (Heb. מלאכה) is forbidden, with the one exception of preparing food on an existing flame. These strictures do not apply to any of the other Jewish holidays, therefore there is a definite need for this current article.Davidbena (talk) 16:35, 22 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
See Jewish_holidays#Terminology_used_to_describe_holidays at יום טוב. Yom Kippur was included there, but colloquially people do use the term to apply to Yom Kippur as well. But everything you're saying is included elsewhere, as Yoninah says below. And nobody, but nobody, uses the term "festival day".
That said:
Hebrew Wikipedia has two separate articles: he:חגי ישראל ומועדיו, which is the one corresponding to Jewish holidays, and he:יום טוב, which has corresponding articles only in French and Italian, both called "Yom Tov". So if you really want a separate article that badly, rename it to "Yom Tov" (since nobody calls it "festival day") and make sure you cover the ground in the Hebrew article. But I don't personally think it's necessary. StevenJ81 (talk) 16:54, 22 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
It is not necessary, period. A long, long time ago, when Wikipedia started, everything was being translated into English using academic sources such as the Jewish Encyclopedia. Since then, foreign-language terms have been introduced (such as my articles on Kvitel and Chavrusa). At most, Davidbena, you should lobby to have Jewish holidays changed to Yom Tov. But the reason that that article encompasses a broader array of moadim is because this is an encyclopedia for all faiths, and that is how the non-Jewish world perceives dates like Yom Kippur and Hanukkah. You would be better off dropping this crusade and working on improving sourcing on the Jewish pages instead. Yoninah (talk) 17:10, 22 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
To "lobby to have to have Jewish holidays changed to Yom Tov would be misconstruing the term, User:Yoninah, since all learned orthodox Jews understand the words import, and what it does not imply. The article Jewish holidays is, as its name implies, an all-inclusive article on Jewish holidays, but it does not deal specifically with the subject of "Festival-day" as understood in Jewish law.Davidbena (talk) 18:56, 22 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I don't understand what you're saying. I am an Orthodox Jew, and I have never heard of a Festival-day (Jewish). Yoninah (talk) 21:07, 22 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
User:Yoninah, have you heard of the word, "Yom Tov"? It, my friend, is commonly translated in English as "Festival-day," although it literally means in Hebrew, "good day." In this case, I'm sure that you've heard of it, as there are halachic responsa treating on the subject, and which word(s) refer(s) to six special days in the Jewish calendar, excluding Hanukka, Purim, Yom Kippur and Sabbath days. Tell me, my friend, are you trying to be facetious?Davidbena (talk) 21:55, 22 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Yom Tov is not commonly translated as Festival Day. Being that we are the English Wikipedia, we refer to Google. Look up "Festival day" and you get 1,300,000,000 hits, none of which refer to Yom Tov. Your insistence on renaming Yom Tov is turning into a neologism. Yoninah (talk) 22:04, 22 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Yoninah, Yoninah, calm down! If you have access to an English translation of the Mishnah, Tractate Betzah, you'll find the word used often, just as it is called here. Look, for instance, at Herbert Danby's English translation of the Mishnah. Notwithstanding, the English name presents no problem since the page can also be accessed through the name, "Yom Tov (biblical)."Davidbena (talk) 22:10, 22 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete per nom and per WP:CFORK. Firstly, it is ridiculous to translate the term Yom Tov into English because no one uses the term "Festival Day" – they all say "Yom Tov" or "Jewish holiday" (or "Jewish festival"). Secondly, all this information is already in the Jewish holiday article. Yoninah (talk) 16:38, 22 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Again, my friend, this current article has nothing to do with your designation, WP:Content Forking, insofar that this parameter is defined as: "the creation of multiple separate articles all treating the same subject." Currently, there isn't any single article on Wikipedia that treats on the particular subject of "Yom Tov" (Festival-day), except for this one.Davidbena (talk) 22:19, 22 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
If any of our friends here can read Hebrew, the Hebrew Wikipedia also discusses the definition of Yom-Tov (Festival-day), and explains it precisely as I have explained it in our current article. See: Hebrew Wikipedia. The academic consensus is unequivocal, namely, that a "Festival-day", in Jewish law, is only one of six days, just as outlined in our current article. There is no need, repeat, no need, to delete it.Davidbena (talk) 16:46, 22 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
We're not the Hebrew Wikipedia, we use common English usage. On the English Wikipedia, there is no need for a Festival-Day article. It violates policy. It's a fork, it's not needed. Anything you want to add, can be added to the Jewish holiday or the Three_pilgrimage_festivals article. Also, you have already voted, so you should strike out your second vote, you would not want to be called out on voting twice. Sir Joseph (talk) 16:54, 22 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete. The creator apparently wants an article "specifically on the Jewish technical term, 'Festival-day.'" But Wikipedia is not a dictionary – let alone a Hebrew dictionary. Maproom (talk) 17:16, 22 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
The article not only explains the term, as would a dictionary, but elaborates on its halachic ramifications. It is, therefore, a needed article.Davidbena (talk) 22:23, 22 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment - it is clear from the above that I don't have enough knowledge to make a !vote here, so have deleted my above. JMWt (talk) 17:20, 22 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Friends, this is an article related to Jewish subjects, and as such, it is wholly worthy of its place in the articles reflecting Wikipedia/Judaism. This is not merely a "technical name," but a well-defined term used throughout Judaism. In fact, the foremost authority on Jewish law, Rabbi Yosef Karo, has written an entire treatise in his Code of Jewish Law on the "Festival-day," Hilchot Yom-Tov, Shulhan Arukh, (Orach Chaim, section # 495), as also Maimonides, in Hilchot Shevitat Yom-Tov. So much is it a part of Jewish law that we say, "If an egg was laid on a Festival-day, it may not be eaten" (Heb. ביצה שנולדה ביום טוב לא תאכל), [Mishnah Betzah 1:1], and, "They are not permitted to bake or cook on a Festival-day for a regular week-day" (Heb. אין אופין ומבשלין מיום טוב לחול) [Mishnah Berurah, on Orach Chaim §495]. Now, we all know that Hanukkah and Purim, being not true "Festival-days," it is permitted to eat an egg laid on those days, just as it is permitted to bake or cook on either of those days for the day that follows. This proves, without question, that we are addressing a specific term used in Halacha, which warrants our keeping this article.Davidbena (talk) 18:42, 22 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
You can comment all you want, but you are missing the point. This is English Wikipedia, not the Hebrew Wikipedia and it's not the Shulchan Aruch. Yom Tov is not translated as festival-day, it's translated as holiday. If Purim and Chanukah is a working holiday, that should be mentioned in the holiday article but it does not need to be in a forked article. You shouldn't continuously argue the same point over and over again. Sir Joseph (talk) 19:08, 22 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
English Wikipedia caters to Jews (English speaking) who use this term, just as it appears in many English translations of the word "Yom-Tov" (i.e. "Festival-day"). Look at the English Soncino edition of the Talmud. This term, "Festival-day," in its Jewish connotation, has a limited meaning. There's no need, my friend User:Sir Joseph, to expunge this fact from our readers. This specific article was made to accommodate that need of being precise and accurate; after all, that's what a good Encyclopedia does. Be well.Davidbena (talk) 19:58, 22 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Davidbena, would you please relax? Several of the other people writing here are Orthodox also, we are perfectly familiar with these sources, and we don't think you need an extra article. All of this information is available in the article Jewish holidays. If you don't think that quite handles it accurately, look to make some careful edits to that article. StevenJ81 (talk) 20:16, 22 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
User:StevenJ81, I'm fully relaxed, my friend. The problem with the other article (i.e. Jewish holidays) is that it does not deal specifically with "Festival-days," per se, but "Jewish holidays," in general. The two terms are not analogous, seeing that there are specific rules which apply to a Jewish "Festival-day" (Yom tov). I do not doubt that we have some fully-qualified and able orthodox people here. Be-well.Davidbena (talk) 20:33, 22 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Davidbena, somewhat against my better judgment I played with the Jewish holidays article to try to accommodate your point of view. I removed "Jewish festivals" from the grouping section, because (a) nobody in the universe calls them that in English (see Lisa below), and (b) the appropriate place is in the terminology section below. In the terminology section, I tried to accommodate the point of view that Yom Kippur is not the same as the other six.
Beyond that, I think some of the details about which melachot are permissible on yom tov and which aren't can be moved to the article Melacha. If you do that, the only thing left in your article that is not included anywhere else (that I know of) is "half for us, half for Hashem". And I'll find a way to get that into the Jewish holidays article if you absolutely insist. StevenJ81 (talk) 20:50, 22 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Steve, while it is true that the proscriptions for the Sabbath days and six Festival days are similar, they are still dissimilar enough to warrant a special article on this subject, which can be expanded later to incorporate many of the other laws defined in the Shulhan Arukh and in Maimonides' Code of Jewish Law. The bottom line is that we find in Judaism the term "Yom Tov" (Festival-day), which is not the same as the Sabbath day, and which excludes other holidays days in the Jewish calendar.Davidbena (talk) 21:24, 22 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
We already have an article for Yom Tov and we already have an article for Shabbos and we already have an article for Melacha and we already have an article for the Three Pilgrimage Holidays. We don't need another one just because you are literally translating a word that nobody uses. Can we please just close the AFD already since you seem to be making the same arguments and not listening to anyone? Sir Joseph (talk) 21:34, 22 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Sir Joseph, Afd's run for a week. Debresser (talk) 22:08, 22 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Not under the Wikipedia:Deletion_process#Early_closure , WP:Snowball_clause. Sir Joseph (talk) 01:14, 23 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Of course, dear Sir. However, this is not a snowball case, and even though I have no doubt as to the outcome of this discussion, it doesn't live up to snowball standards. Debresser (talk) 07:34, 23 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
thank you, my friend. Sir Joseph (talk) 16:40, 23 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
That is incorrect, User:Sir Joseph, as there is no article on Yom Tov, excepting the one that is here-named Festival-day (Jewish), which, mind you, is also named, "Yom Tov (biblical)." There is, however, a different WP page entitled "Tov Tov (disambiguation)," and an article entitled "Yom Tov Torah readings." Of course, that is something else. The term "Yom Tov" isn't the same as having an article for Shabbos, nor for having one on Melacha (forbidden labours).Davidbena (talk) 22:05, 22 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete - No one on the planet would ever search for an article by this name, even if they were looking for something specifically dealing with Yom Tov. And yes, Yom Kippur is Yom Tov. Sheesh. Jewish holidays is fine. There's no reason for this. Yamim Tovim are a subset of Jewish holidays. If you want to make a יום טוב article in Hebrew Wikipedia (assuming there isn't already one there), go right ahead. In English, it's just silly. - Lisa (talk - contribs) 20:38, 22 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
That is your view, Lisa, and I take it that it comes from a lack of adequate knowledge about this quaint and arcane "Jewish term," namely, Yom Tov. The Soncina edition of the Babylonian Talmud admits that the word is strictly used for certain Jewish holidays, saying: "...we see that festivals differed from the Sabbath mainly in the preparation of food; and indeed with but few exceptions (e.g., carrying and kindling) this represents the final ruling. Consequently, for the most part, the laws of festivals are the same as those of the Sabbath," meaning, Purim and Hanukkah are not to be included in the category of festivals.Davidbena (talk) 21:16, 22 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
You think too much of yourself, Davidbena, and wrongly think too little of others. I know what ימים טובים are. And if someone were to look Yom Tov up on Wikipedia, it would be as Yom tov, and not "Festival-day". Your suggestion is bizarre. And we don't pasken by a simplistic reading of the Gemara. I find it amusing, to say the least, that someone who appears to be limited to an archaic translation of the Gemara, rather than the original, would question the knowledge of Orthodox Jews here. Yom Kippur is most certainly considered Yom Tov, despite the fact that it carries all of the issurim that Shabbat does (other than the prohibition of fasting, obviously). Every holiday in Judaism has its own rules and regulations. Purim is not in the same category as Hanukkah (we say Hallel on the latter and light chanukiot, rather than reading megillah and giving shlach manot and matanot l'evyonim). Pesach is not in the same category as Sukkot, which is not in the same category as Shavuot. Do those three have something in common that Purim and Hanukkah don't have? Sure. At the same time, Pesach and Sukkot and Hanukkah have something in common that isn't shared by Shavuot and Purim. Rosh Hashana and Yom Kippur have a common category called Yamim Noraim (Days of Awe, or the High Holidays), but that doesn't mean they need a separate article on English Wikipedia.
No one calls Yom Tov "Festival-day". Not with the hyphen and not without it. You appear to be demonstrating the adage that a little knowledge is a dangerous thing. It's even more dangerous when the person with a little knowledge erroniously thinks he has a lot of knowledge. - Lisa (talk - contribs) 15:24, 28 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I completely agree with Lisa. In addition, I don't see how your reply detracts even the least bit from what she wrote. In general, don't feel obligated to defend your position against each and every person disagreeing with you in a discussion. Not good form. Debresser (talk) 22:14, 22 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Without belaboring this point, just to show you that our "dear Lisa" is mistaken, the article can be accessed by writing "Yom Tov (biblical)," and, since it is an English article, it is only natural that it carry an English title, "Festival-day," which word (yom tov) is translated as such in most English translations of our Mishnah. Lisa, obviously, does not speak for the entire planet, as our English translations of this term will show. I feel that it would be a great error and disservice to Wikipedians to have this article deleted, since it fills a gap in what is clearly outlined in Halacha. I appeal here to people of sound minds, Shawn in Montreal and Sir Joseph and StevenJ81 and Debresser, to reconsider their judgment.Davidbena (talk) 22:34, 22 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This debate has been included in the list of Language-related deletion discussions. Shawn in Montreal (talk) 22:06, 22 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • it seems clear that the consensus is that everything is already covered with existing articles and Hebrew terms that exist on that Wikipedia doesn't necessarily mean that it has to have an article on this Wikipedia with the exact literal translation. I think at this point all that can be said has been said and the AFD should be closed. Sir Joseph (talk) 22:14, 22 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete and merge/redirect if needed There has got to be a way to accommodate this somewhere within Jewish_holidays#General_concepts, if this is what the article creator claims it to be. If it's truly that significant, then it's glaring by its absence. Forking off the main article on Jewish holidays may serve the article creator's wishes but it does not serve our readers, who can reasonably expect to find this explained within the "Groupings" section, or maybe better yet, "Terminology used to describe holidays," rather than a split-off stub. Shawn in Montreal (talk) 22:29, 22 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • I didn't see it there, not as "festival-days." That term would need to be added, would it not? Shawn in Montreal (talk) 22:35, 22 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Nobody calls it "festival days". It's commonly translated as holiday. The differences among the days are already in the articles. Also, the condescending tone of David is not cool at all. Sir Joseph (talk) 22:41, 22 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Again, my fellow co-editor, Sir Joseph, I would totally respect your view if it were correct. However, a brief look at English translations of the Mishnah and Talmud, or books on Halacha, will show you that the word "Yom Tov" is either transliterated "Yom Tov," or translated "Festival-day," or "Festival." The word holiday is too general of a word.Davidbena (talk) 14:57, 24 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for the suggestion, Shawn in Montreal, I just added "Yom Tov" to Groupings. StevenJ81, please go ahead and edit what needs to be edited. Yoninah (talk) 22:42, 22 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Yoninah, I took "yom tov" out of groupings, because I thought it belonged in "terminology", where it already exists. But, look, if it's going to make Davidbena happy, I'll stop fighting it.
I'll be honest with you all: (1) I absolutely do not believe that this article is necessary. I personally would still !vote to delete it. (2) I absolutely do not believe it actually hurts anybody if we keep it. As it stands right now (15:32, 23 December 2015 (UTC)), the consensus is clearly to delete it. But if Davidbena gets enough support (without canvassing) that the consensus becomes muddled, I'm not going to insist on deletion. StevenJ81 (talk) 15:32, 23 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Friends, one very good reason why this article should NOT be deleted or merged with another, may G-d forbid, is because I hoped to expand it, bringing down other aspects of Halacha relating solely to the "Yom Tov." If elements of this current article should be merged with another, say, in an article which speaks on more general terms, it would seriously limit my capacity to expand on the subject in the realm of Halacha. With this, I say "good night," gentlemen.Davidbena (talk) 22:49, 22 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
"G-d forbid"? That's a bit strong language for a deletion discussion. :) Debresser (talk) 07:33, 23 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Note to Closer: Davidbena possibly canvassed users by placing notices on specific user talkpages.
    I'm only aware of one so far, and that user came down on the delete side. StevenJ81 (talk) 15:32, 23 December 2015 (UTC) [reply]
    Gentlemen, I will not hide the fact that I requested from people (most, whom I do not even know) to voice an opinion, one way or the other, but I NEVER requested from anyone to sway the vote in my favor. So, is that "canvassing"???--Davidbena (talk) 15:50, 23 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    This is how one should let other users know about an AFD:
    Hi, you might be interested in this discussion at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Festival-day. Davidbena
    This is how you let people know:
    Hi, User:Lisa. As of yesterday, there was no specific article on Wikipedia dealing with the specific Jewish festivals known as a "Festival-day" (Yom-Tov). That means 15-years of Wikipedia without an article on the Jewish "Festival-day." This prompted me to write an article yesterday on the subject, which you can read here: Festival-day (Jewish), but now a person has wrongly suggested that it be deleted. See: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Festival-day. Can you please interject here and voice your opinion whether or not the article should be deleted, as your view is important here, I would think. It's urgent.Davidbena (talk) 19:29, 22 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    What you wrote is not only canvassing, it's trying to sway people's !votes. Yoninah (talk) 15:56, 23 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    I'm still not sure if that is categorized as "canvassing," Yoninah. The bottom-line in my address to Lisa (whom I do not know personally) was this: "Can you please interject here and voice your opinion whether or not the article should be deleted."Davidbena (talk) 16:02, 23 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    So why didn't you say it that way? You really must re-read WP:NPOV. Neutrality is one of the 5 pillars of Wikipedia. Yoninah (talk) 16:22, 23 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
or delsort or wp:Judaism?Sir Joseph (talk) 16:40, 23 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • For the sake of being exact and precise in our understanding of etiquette, the WP rule states: "All encyclopedic content on Wikipedia must be written from a neutral point of view (NPOV)," which means, on WP's main pages, but it does not limit us from being a little biased in our own private conversations. Be well.Davidbena (talk) 19:18, 23 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
It has nothing to do with pages or userspaces, but it has to do with the canvassing policy. You should read WP:CANVASS Sir Joseph (talk) 04:55, 24 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
User:Sir Joseph, I have no idea what you mean by saying that I'm "condescending." I do not think that I am better than anyone here. As for your accusation that I have been "canvassing," that allegation is flatly wrong. The rules state explicitly: "In general, it is perfectly acceptable to notify other editors of ongoing discussions, provided that it is done with the intent to improve the quality of the discussion by broadening participation to more fully achieve consensus." What is wrong to do is try influence or sway a decision in one's favor.Davidbena (talk) 14:48, 24 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Scroll down a bit to the 4 descriptions of canvassing, which includes Campaigning: Posting a notification of discussion that presents the topic in a non-neutral manner. Yoninah (talk) 16:13, 24 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry, Yoninah, but there it is not actually defined as "canvassing," but only as a breach of "inappropriate notification," which "may be seen as disruptive." This was only a gray area, but since I definitely made it clear that they could vote any way, and I have been transparent about the whole thing, I think it pretty-much rules out an infringement of "canvassing" laws. Be well.Davidbena (talk) 16:40, 24 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

This is for everyone's general information, a page scanned from the Oxford edition of the Mishnah (Tractate Betzah), ed. Herbert Danby. It shows the proper use, in English, of the word rendered in Hebrew as "Yom-Tov," and which has a very limited meaning. Here, it is translated as "Festival-day." File:Page_from_Mishnah_Betza_(Oxford_edition).jpg. ---Davidbena (talk) 16:29, 24 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Since you love quoting Mishna and Talmud, doesn't the Talmud ask if you want to know the correct halacha to go out into the street and you will see? Go out in to any English speaking community, WP:COMMON, and you will see the way they translate Yom Tov. It's irrelevant how a 1930 translation of the Mishna does it, I can find you others that do it differently, and just because you found one that matches your crusade doesn't make it the proper use. Nobody in the English speaking world says "festival day" and Wikipedia is built for common usage. Sir Joseph (talk) 17:01, 24 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Agree with Sir Joseph. And so does the Mishna, which titles the whole page Yom Tob (hey, why not use that instead?). Yoninah (talk) 17:42, 24 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Yoninah, that is a legitimate suggestion. I'm all for changing the title of the page to "Yom Tob," if I can get your vote on it.Davidbena (talk) 19:18, 24 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Agree as well. Sign. When will this editor back away from the dead horse? Debresser (talk) 17:54, 24 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Sir Joseph and others, the famous dictum which you've mentioned, פוק חזי מאי עמא דבר, "Go out and see how the people have it as their practice," refers specifically to a custom that is not readily known, but can be adduced by how the people observe the practice. This has little to do with terminology, and especially not with translation of a Hebrew word! True, we all say in Hebrew, "Yom-Tov," and rarely use the English word when we mention in passing the first and last days of Passover, or the first day of Sukkot, but, still, there is an English word for "Yom-Tov." A good encyclopedia should, I would think, be interested in disseminating knowledge, and in defining certain terms such as this. After all, it is used all throughout the Talmud and in our Halacha. By the way: The Oxford edition, which is in most Public Libraries, is not the only edition to use the word "Festival day" as the proper English designation for "Yom Tov." The Soncino English edition of the Talmud writes in every place for "Yom Tov" the word "festival," which is not meant to include Yom Kippur, Purim or Hanukka.Davidbena (talk) 19:08, 24 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Another sigh. Could someone please close this AFD now? Yoninah (talk) 19:58, 24 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I agree, I still think we can WP:SNOWBALL this. According to the clause, "If an issue does not have a snowball's chance in hell of being accepted by a certain process, there's no need to run it through the entire process." I think we can safely say that consensus is safely in favor of deletion and running this AFD is just not fair to all involved. We can work on the articles involved within this AFD. Sir Joseph (talk) 03:00, 25 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I disagree for a very good reason. Some of our good friends here are beginning to change their minds, as has been shown by their comments above. Besides, Joseph, I do not know why you'd wish to label this as "snowballing," as if the issue here discussed does not have a "snowball's chance in hell" of being accepted, when it does, and when the entire subject matter is relevant to Jewish law.Davidbena (talk) 03:09, 25 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
The main problem of this article remains that it is a fork. If there is anything here, that isn't in other articles, basically Jewish holidays (or Activities prohibited on Shabbat), then it can easily be dispersed there. You have found one instance of the term "Festival-day" in some ancient translation of the Mishnah, and you have renamed the article to "Festival-day (Jewish)" (which should be "Festival-day (Judaism)", by the way). There is nobody who disagrees this article is a fork and should be deleted (or at best redirected). Yet, you keep on improving this article and you reply to each and every person who disagrees with you. Davidbena, please do us all a favor, accept consensus and back away from the dead horse. Debresser (talk) 12:56, 25 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
User:Debresser, User:Sir Joseph, while I definitely respect your opinions, I beg to differ in this one case, for the very reason that an expanded page dealing with the specific issue of the Yom Tov, although it is a branch of the Jewish holidays, should not be considered a fork, no more than an article dealing with Shalosh Regalim (the three Jewish pilgrimages) is considered a fork, although the same holidays are mentioned in Jewish holidays; and no more than Afikoman is considered a fork, although the subject matter could have easily been covered in Passover; and no more than Muktzeh should be considered a fork, although it too could have been covered in Sabbath day. You see, Yom Tov (the proper Hebrew designation for six specific days in the Jewish calendar) has a myriad of Halacha that deal specifically with these days alone. I agree that "Festival day" is not used much by us Yids, but we can always change the title to "Yom Tov," per se. At least, in this case, we'd be explaining its rules and laws in accordance to what has been defined in Halacha. Shabbat Shalom!Davidbena (talk) 14:14, 25 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I don't even know what language that article is in at this point in time. You really need to drop the stick as Debresser pointed out multiple times. Sir Joseph (talk) 15:59, 25 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Semi-arbitrary section break for convenience[edit]

Suggested Compromise: Since a recurring theme in this discussion, mentioned by many contributors, is that the current English name, "Festival-day," doesn't seem to be very applicable, since today we all refer to this special day as "Yom Tov" and rarely, if ever, make use of its English name. I am, therefore, in full-agreement that the title of the page should be changed. I would agree to have the current article deleted, on the condition that Reb Dovid and Sir Joseph will agree to have the article posted anew, either by one of them or someone else, and under the new name "Yom Tov," but also with a more expanded entry on the halachic parameters of the Yom Tov. I have no qualms about having someone else repost the article under a new name, and with a better encyclopedic entry.Davidbena (talk) 17:07, 26 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Just copying my post from above, since this editor is not getting the point The main problem of this article remains that it is a fork. If there is anything here, that isn't in other articles, basically Jewish holidays (or Activities prohibited on Shabbat), then it can easily be dispersed there. You have found one instance of the term "Festival-day" in some ancient translation of the Mishnah, and you have renamed the article to "Festival-day (Jewish)" (which should be "Festival-day (Judaism)", by the way). There is nobody who disagrees this article is a fork and should be deleted (or at best redirected). Yet, you keep on improving this article and you reply to each and every person who disagrees with you. Davidbena, please do us all a favor, accept consensus and back away from the dead horse. Debresser (talk) 12:56, 25 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
There is no question in my mind that this article is NOT a fork, since there is no other article in WP main space that treats specifically on this major Talmudic and halachic issue, namely, the day known as Yom Tov. This article is meant to cover the halachic issues concerned with that day; what is permitted and not permitted to do on those days called as such in rabbinic writings.Davidbena (talk) 20:25, 26 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
One of the things lending to confusion, I believe, is the lead line in the article, Jewish holidays, which reads: "Jewish holidays, also known as Jewish festivals or Yamim Tovim (ימים טובים, "Good Days", or singular יום טוב Yom Tov." First, the words, "Jewish holidays," are wrongly translated in the page's title as "Yom Tov" / "Yamim Tovim." It is a misnomer, and should have rather been translated as " Chagim Yehudim " (Heb. חגים יהודיים). This is because, in classical Hebrew (or in rabbinic Hebrew), the word "Tom Tov" has a limited meaning, and excludes some Jewish holidays, such as Purim, Hanukkah and Yom Kippur.Davidbena (talk) 21:04, 26 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
No. Sir Joseph (talk) 23:41, 26 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  1. I won't support a snowball close. But we're actually closing in on a week anyway, I think.
  2. I don't know if your point about Yamim Tovim in the lead of Jewish holidays is really complicating things or not. Most of the people who have been discussing this article understand that point and still believe this article is an unnecessary fork. I will, however, edit Jewish holidays in the next day or two to fix that problem, which you are basically correct about. (I will point out that while in places like Betzah and Shevitat Yom Tov, Yom Kippur is not part of the mix, many people really do think of Yom Kippur as a yom tov in practice, because it's a Biblical holiday where melacha is prohibited. So to the extent we keep this article, or blend it into others, please do not be excessively pedantic on the subject of Yom Kippur's inclusion or not in practice.)
  3. The article does not need to be deleted and rewritten. What you have written is a perfectly fine start, if we are to keep this article in Wikipedia. (As I've mentioned to you elsewhere, the name needs to be changed, but that's a different question.) The question here is whether this is really a necessary new article or an unnecessary fork. I will point out that the Hebrew, French and Italian Wikipedias each have two separate articles. In all other Wikipedias there is only one, so there is precedent to go on either way. I personally don't believe that the general readership has a need for the complete second article, which is why I lean toward deletion. I'd really rather have you incorporate the bulk of this article into a new section of the article on Melacha. StevenJ81 (talk) 15:39, 28 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete per nom and many other suggestions. Moreover the article may well be incorrect as Rosh Hashana and Yom Kippur are considered Yomim Tovim as well (at least according to the Rambam to the best of my recollection - albeit without Simcha Yesayra); there is no specialness to the term Yom Tov—if anything the proper term is Moed; and any discussion of a class name for the Moadim should be in the existing article Jewish holidays or similar. Avi (talk) 18:27, 28 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Avi, thanks for your interjection. Perhaps, though, you hadn't seen that the article clearly states that Rosh Hashanah is, in fact, a Yom Tov. There is no dispute between us in this matter. As for Yom Kippur, it too is treated in the article, where it is called "holy convocation," just as the other festivals. The use of the word "Yom Tov" is not used in the Torah, but it is used by the Sages of Israel. RAMBAM does not call Yom Kippur by the name "Yom Tov" (See Hil. Shevitat Yom Tov 1:1). However, our modern-day use of the word "Yom-Tov" might indeed include the Fast Day, Yom Kippur. Perhaps we can add this in the article. The main thing to remember here is that the Talmud distinguishes between these days and, let's say, Purim and Hanukka where we learn in Beitzah 36b: "The festival only differs from a Sabbath in regard of preparation of food for the individual alone," meaning, all other labors are forbidden during the Yom Tov. This proscription, of course, was never meant to include Purim and Hanukka, neither the interdict of Mukzeh which applies to the biblical days known as Yom Tov. In my humble opinion, these distinctions are very important and worthy of our inclusion in a separate article.Davidbena (talk) 23:29, 28 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
"Delete per nom (by name)," I take it to imply that the name of the article ought to be changed. I'm in full agreement that the name, "Yom Tov," may be a better choice for this article.Davidbena (talk) 23:38, 28 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Davidbena, the term "Festival-day" is almost unheard of in English and is certainly not notable enough for a wikipedia entry. Anything that could even conceivably be handled in an article titled "Festival-day" is better handled in the article about Yomim Tovim & Moadim, namely Jewish holidays. -- Avi (talk) 07:39, 29 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Avi, Let us then change the title of this article to "Yom Tov," and then let us give unto it its due weight (i.e. expand it). To add all this material to the article of "Jewish holidays" would distract from the more general subject of "Jewish holidays." IMHO.--Davidbena (talk) 12:51, 29 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
No need, we have Yom Tov as a redirect to Jewish holidays. If there is anything in specific that you think necessary to add to Wikipedia, I'd suggest bringing it up at Talk:Jewish holidays. You can also engage in discussion there about specific information which you believe is 1) appropriate for the English Wikipedia project yet 2) Inappropriate for the Jewish holidays article. Perhaps an even better place to discuss this would be Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Judaism, where you can state your case and engage similarly interested editors in discussion as to the merits of your suggestion. However, it seems pretty clear that this article, at this point, does not have consensus to continue. Thank you. -- Avi (talk) 15:27, 29 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Avi, while I appreciate your views (assuming Good Faith), it is still the firm belief of this editor that just as having a separate article on Shalosh Regalim, although it is a branch of Jewish holidays, does not subtract from the latter, there should also be a separate article on Yom Tov, although it too is a branch of Jewish holidays, and would not subtract from the latter. The reason here is clear, namely, Hanukkah, Purim and Yom Kippur are not included in the general halachic rules that ought to be covered under the title of Yom Tov, just as the title is used in a Tractate by that name, Beitzah (Yom Tov), and as the authors of works on Jewish Halacha have given special treatment to this category, using this same name. Having an expanded article on this one topic, with all its pertinent information related to the six days of Yom Tov, does not subtract from the more general article on Jewish holidays. IMHO.Davidbena (talk) 00:26, 30 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Meseches Beitzah also includes nolad and muktzah and a lot of other topics (kutach haBavli, anyone?) that doesn't justify a new article. We will have to agree to disagree and let the consensus process do its job. -- Avi (talk) 00:30, 30 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
But, Meseches Beitzah does make it clear in 36b that "Any act that is culpable on the Sabbath, whether by virtue of the rules concerning Shavus (Sabbath rest) or concerning Rashus (acts of choice) or concerning Mitzvah (pious duties), is culpable also on a Yom Tov." It then goes on to list these proscriptions, such as, in the case of Shavus, "climbing a tree, riding a beast, swimming on water, clapping the hands or dancing, etc." The rabbis here were making a fence about the Torah so that people would not inadvertently break-off a branch from a tree, or make a sailing vessel from rafts, or fix a broken musical instrument. The laws require explaining in its place.Davidbena (talk) 00:45, 30 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
As for your concern about being over-burdensome with laws about "Muktzeh," this will not be necessary since there is already an article that deals with that issue. Only the major issues ought and will be discussed there, and not, of course, kutach haBavli.Davidbena (talk) 00:56, 30 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Jeez Louise can we please close this? It's been seven days, the mourning period is over and the horse is stinking. Sir Joseph (talk) 23:40, 28 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • אפשר שיש דין שלושים על סוסים? -- Avi (talk) 00:46, 30 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • תני רבי אבי, קל וחומר מאדם. מה אדם שהוא מהלכי שתים יש לו דין שלושים, סוס שהוא מהלכי ארבע לא כל שכן. פריך ר' אבי על עצמו, מה אדם שהוא חייב במצוות, תאמר בסוס שפטור ממצוות? אלא לא זה כראוי זה ולא זה כראוי זה, מה הצד השווה הוא שהם על וויקיפדיה.
    • And I'll leave it there . -- Avi (talk) 00:53, 30 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
      • אין צורך להספיד סוס שאינו סוס ובודאי לא סוס שכבר מת, כיוון שאנחנו עדיין מלבנים את הסוגיה. אני מבקש שנהיה כולנו סובלנים יותר לשם כלל ישראל ---Davidbena (talk) 01:00, 30 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • User:Davidbena, it should be obvious to you by now that your arguments and counter-arguments are not convincing anyone. Please keep in mind for future AFD discussions that it is not good form to reply and argue to each and every editor who submits an !vote, as User:Debresser mentioned above. You say what you have to say in your initial !vote, and then let the process play itself out. Yoninah (talk) 01:23, 30 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Yoninah, as in any discussion with pros and cons, merits and non-merits, sometimes our arguments are weak in one area, but stronger in another. I do not mean to be disrespectful at all, as I respect every man's opinion, and I think that all of us here have the same desire and wish to make Wikipedia a good online encyclopedia.Davidbena (talk) 04:05, 30 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

In addition, you should not be renaming or moving articles during an AFD. Sir Joseph (talk) 04:47, 30 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, I realize now that that was a mistake. Since many have mentioned that "no one uses the word 'Festival-day,' and on more than several occasions it has been stated, I thought to myself that this may actually have been the cause for some to vote "delete." I was simply trying to "meet-them-halfway," and to remove all obstacles. Sorry about that. I won't do it again, unless our friends will agree to give this article a standing chance.Davidbena (talk) 04:59, 30 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
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