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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result of the debate was delete. Flowerparty☀ 02:50, 15 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Female Revan

Largely duplicated content from Darth Revan. Should be deleted as all the content in this article exists/has existed in Darth Revan Lord Deskana Dark Lord of the Sith 14:39, 9 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

In the game, Revan may be either male or female. This page been put up to maintain a neutral perspective and to actually be neutral as wikipedia claims itself to be. And acknowledge the unequal gender distrubition in Star Wars. Not everyone agrees with canon--particularly the women who have played the games.

Aside from the self reference, it gives a clearer picture on why this article was created. --Lord Deskana Dark Lord of the Sith 17:00, 9 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment Okay so according to this post, you nominated this page for deletion before you even went up and read the entire content. How many of you actually read the article in its entirety before you decided to put it up here? Do you even know it has different sections? user:StarShadow 18.23 UTC
  • Keep this article up I fail to see how this article is unnecessary. I have tried to edit the original Revan article to make it gender neutral, but all my efforts have been deleted. If you won't let us create gender neutrality on the main Revan page, then for Pete's sakes, let us make a Female Revan page! It's not offending anyone in any way, and since it is one of the available options in the game, it deserves more than a line in the Wikipedia entry. Noneko
This user hado nly 3 previous edits -- Drini 20:57, 9 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep this article up This article has text that was largely deleted from an edit because too many people did not agree with it. There are people who want to have Female version of the article. As shown by the number of edits to that page and the amount of traffic. If you believe the article is superfluous than maintain the gender-neutral perspective on the main Revan page. However this article will be backed up and reposted. If Wikipedia is to be neutral, it should maintain either the gender-neutrality or allow this page to stay up. Anyone can post on wikipedia--if the article is about a non-canonical character, that does not mean that it's content is superfluous. If the content offends you, then you have a choice not to go to it.NOTE: I do find it offensive that you deleted the portions of the post that indicated how the article was different: The Mandy War Section is different, the Revan as Padawan Section is different, the vast majority of this page, content wise, is different. This page has more references than the other page, and is more thorough in giving inforation that the editors of the other page chose to forgo simply because they didn't want it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by StarShadow (talk • contribs)
This account is less than a week old and has only edited the article and afd -- Drini 18:33, 9 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
It that shouldn't matter since Wikipedia allows people to post unless there is some kind of elitist association that only allows people of a certain time to post anything. And no if you check the edit section of the article you will see that I am not the only one who has posted on the article. User:StarShadowUTC 18:37
From Wikipedia:Guide to deletion:
Because of our past problems, opinions offered by new or anonymous users are often met with suspicion and may be discounted during the closing process. This decision is made at the discretion of the closing admin after considering the contribution history and pattern of comments. In practice, civil comments and logical arguments are often given the benefit of doubt while hostile comments are presumed to be bad-faith. Please note that verifiable facts and evidence are welcome from anybody and will be considered during the closing process.
-- Drini 19:13, 9 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    • The fact that this is a fictional character has nothing to do with the AfD, and threatening to willingly violate Wikipedia policy isn't an especially good idea. The problem is that the Star Wars canon, which is what is most important in this issue, states that Revan is male [1] [2]. Hence, Revan (in the Wikipedia article) should be referred to as male, with an aside about the possibility of him being female. Wikipedia's neutrality has no bearing on this issue. EVula 17:52, 9 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Okay, so basically you're saying if someone wants to look up information specifically on a Female Revan, you're saying that the main article is sufficient? Look at the difference between the articles There are parts of the male character article that have no reference whatsoever including the height for the listing, that was why the hieght listing was changed for both the female character listing and the male. Again, no reference added for that. At least merge the information between both articles to at least maintain accuracy. User:StarShadow

I disagree Starshadow. Revan is Revan is Revan. Having an extra article is a waste of space. The information about Revan's past is the same, regardless of gender, so what's the problem.Hitokiri Akins

new account, no previous edits -- Drini 18:34, 9 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
comment If that were true, why were the changes to the Mandy War section which were far more specific deleted? StarShadow 18:30 (UTC)
comment this article was the result of multiple people editing accurate content that was added to the Darth Revan page--many of the sections that are in this Female Revan article were at first added on to the Darth Revan page but were ripped out. Now, this artcile was created in order to put inforation up. Again deletion. This isn't neutrality, this is pure censorship. The reason wikipedia doesn't get respect as a source is because this kind of thing happens. StarShadow June 9, 2006 18:47 (UTC)
comment Having an article here that states that Revan is supposed to be male, even if it has a section on the option of being female, is NOT neutrality. It's sexism. Female heroes can and do exist. Keep the article up--then, at least, it will be somewhat closer to maintaining the ambiguity of Revan's gender. --DJP 18:54, 9 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
User's first and only edit, as of now. -- Lord Deskana Dark Lord of the Sith 19:12, 9 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
The number of edits I have made in the past is completely irrelevant to the argument being made. Stop pointing it out. ----DJP 19:24, 9 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
If you have a problem with sexism, take it up with LucasArts; they are the ones that dictated that Revan is a male. No number of sockpuppets is going to change that. EVula 18:56, 9 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]


comment Let's talk about sexism. How many people who voted for deletion page right now are guys? And how many of you are girls? The bias will reveal itself if you simply answer the question, at least if you're not afraid to answer the question. I'm a girl. Putting up that page after I was countlessly deleted was my only offense, that and being insulted. And of course, being a girl--if you think that to be offensive. StarShadow 19:00 June 9, 2006.
comment I'm female. I want that article to stay partially because I'm a feminist girl-gamer, but also because there are people who might need the reference material. If you're going to delete this page, you'll have to delete the original Darth Revan page as well. Or add a section to it on the female option in the game that is of equal length to the male one: the section they have now is pitifully small compared to the rest of the article that has Revan as male. --DJP 19:14, 9 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
User's first edit -- Drini 19:23, 9 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
comment I've read this article and the other Darth Revan article. This one is well written and well researched as well as offers the female perspective of the character. The game this character originated in was designed to allow the player to choose the gender and to allow a distinct and seperate story line for each gender. To be fair to the players and creators of Knight of the Old Republic, this article or one similar should be allowed to tell the female side of the game. --LanaRevanStar 19:21, 9 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
User's first edit -- Drini 19:23, 9 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]


Keep it While "canon" claims the character is male, a cruise through KOTOR fanfics and discussion boards indicate a strong following that holds the "heretic" view and hotly disagrees with Lucasarts. Over 85% of KOTOR fanfic depicts the character as a woman, despite the "canonization," or gender of the player. Also, articles on a Male Revan omit the references to gender neutrality and the female-only content. Perhaps it should go to Wookieepedia, but full-blown omission is a bad idea. Multiple attempts have been made to add the female game path perspective to the "standard" page; attempts that have met with hostility and deletion. If Wilkipedia's going to have KOTOR and Star Wars entries, then the controversy must be addressed.Allronix 19:24, 9 June 2006 (UTC)[[[reply]
User's first edit -- Drini 19:25, 9 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I've edited several articles on before (Below the Root, Wizard of Oz, fan fiction), just never saw the need to make comment until now. -- Allronix
LIAR LIAR PANTS ON FIRE! [3]
Oh? EVula 20:06, 9 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Well since I cant vote for it either way, I'll ask this: Why is there a need to delete this entry when it doesnt impede or invalidate the MaleRev article on Wookiepedia? Is it so wrong to want a FemRevan entry source? To be fair, if your going to delete this entry, take down the MaleRevan article as well. Or merge both of these together, along with all the baggage Lucasarts created over the issue, that way we can all be one happy KOTOR family again. Warts and all. –Silvermane —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Silver mane (talk • contribs) .
User's first edit, not to confuse with Silvermane -- Drini 20:51, 9 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
This is quite obviously sexism. Notice how a LARGE portion of the people saying that it should be deleted are men? The Darth Revan page was edited BEYOND recognition just to say that Revan was MALE. This page should balance out the idiocy put on the Darth Revan page. And just because George Lucas says that it's canon doesn't mean that it goes. Lucas can't write any good lines for the fricking movies (remember Padme and Anakin in Episode III?), so I don't think he gets a say in what Revan is gonna be. There's a reason Knights of the Old Republic is an RPG game: So people can customize their character, from gender to type of Jedi. No one can give us the "We don't need two Revan articles" bull because it's obvious that it's the word FEMALE before the word Revan that's giving everyone the problems. Female Revan is as much of a valid character as Male Revan is. And whoever said that it DOES affect the storyline - how so? I don't see that much of a difference. FEMALE Revan defeats Malak the same way MALE Revan does. I say this is unfair and that the article should be either kept or merged with the existing Male Revan one. It's not like a Female Revan article is going to overstep the other one. Besides, women need a chance to shine in Star Wars. Notice how Luke and Han and Obi-wan and Qui-Gon are ALL men, along with Ulic and Exar Kun? The only three women that have big names are Ayla Secura, Leia, and Shaak Ti, and they don't even get the attention of most people who have only seen the movies. Does someone have a PROBLEM with forcing it to stay that way? If so, give me some really good reasons for it.I don't really care if someone places Revan as male of female because that's ridiculous. As I mentioned before, KotOR is an RPG. It's supposed to be customized by the player. One side has as much meaning as the other. My gripe is with the people who say that Wiki has room only for one Revan. Think carefully. The person who wrote this article spent a lot of time, as I've heard mentioned. Would anyone want to throw that away just because someone thinks that having articles for Male and Female Revan is ridiculous? DelasaerChval 20:04, 9 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
User's first edit -- Drini 20:51, 9 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I've never seen such fucking blatant sexist tripe, I'd vote to keep because women have just the same rights as we men do... and it's rather interesting to note that a lot of the men here are threatened by strong female roles. I honestly thought we'd left the dark ages behind.Narsil —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 86.140.55.140 (talk • contribs) .
ip's first edit -- Drini 21:13, 9 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Comment This is my final post here. None of the people who posted there were sock puppets, they were people however who were upset at having the page deleted and decided to post. Many of them are first times posters. Every time the Darth Revan page has been edited to reflect the gender-neutral story, it has been shamelessly edited and the content destroyed. That is far from objective. Before considering the deletion of this page, consider that no one put it up for deletion until now. Consider also looking through the history of the Darth Revan page and seeing how many times a user has tried to edit the page to reflect the gender-neutrality page before it was written over. Also consider how many of the people who have posted here for the deletion of this page are, in fact male, and have edited the male Revan page how many times. It seems, that this article is not being considered for deletion on it's strenghts or weaknesses, but it is simply an affront by those who feel offended by a female version of a gender-neutral character, although the article specifically states the inconsistency within Canon, while the other article does not. The Darth Revan article not only is incomplete compared to the Female Revan article's sections, specifically on the Mandalorian Wars and the references to Mando'a, but it is far less thorough. It does not, detailed with regards to Revan's upbringing, it is not detailed with regards to mythological influences. And furthermore, for fan creation, it is little more than what the Darth Revan page is. Of course, I'm probably going to get edited on this edition anyway. But I ask, what is the point of putting information if people simply will delete it? What is the point of having an encyclopedia if it will not tell the whole story, just only what one side of the fans want to read. As a practice it is wrong and unethical on a number of different levels. Just as far is it is from objective. None of these people tried to participate in the imput of the Female Revan character article, as I have tried with the Darth Revan article. They haven't even posted comments on the comments page. Looking over this page suggests that most of them haven't even read teh article in its entirety before voting for a deletion. Is that fair from the perspective of those who want an online encyclopedia? The reaction itself indicates that those who want this page deleted are unwilling to have any other truth or version of this character except that which reflects their page. No one asked for their page to be deleted. And it should be noted that the administrator to asked this page to be deleted reverted to unnecessary name calling in the editing of the page. If he is truly objective, then who can say that the people who are writing in and calling for the deletion of this page are not his buddies as well, except they have posted longer. To be fair, none of the other people who have written on the Female Revan site have posted either, and doubtless they will have their say too. StarShadow June 9th, 23:17 (UTC).
  • Merge with Darth Revan, to continue the discussion. Surely we do not need an individual article solely on the theory that Darth Revan, a fictional character, might have been female. It is interesting content, in other words, but does not warrant its own article. Falcon 23:27, 9 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • 20-Mule Team Delete per nom, and frankly this debate is fast approaching WP:BULLSHIT. If I understand these long impassioned postings, this article invents a purported "truth" about a fictional character that violates the expressed intent of the fiction's author, and we're a bunch of sexist dogs for not buying into this fringe POV. What's next, the Homosexual Rand al'Thor article, complete with fanatics telling us that they know better about Robert Jordan's characters than he himself does? I prescribe a healthy dose of WP:NOT; this is an encyclopedia, not a fanfic site. That's where these hypothetical musings belong. Ravenswing 00:07, 10 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete The argument to keep, once you filter out all the noise, is "We decline Lucas' reality and want to replace it with ours". Fancruft, garbage, burninate. Danny Lilithborne 00:25, 10 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]


The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
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