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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result of the debate was keep. Metamagician3000 14:35, 18 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

European Graduate School[edit]

This article is unreferenced and claims that all sort of famous philosophers and artists (Giorgio Agamben, Alain Badiou, Jean Baudrillard, Judith Butler, Sophie Calle, DJ Spooky, Jean-Luc Nancy, Bruce Sterling, etc., etc.) are professors there. No proofs are provided apart of the School's own website. The link is repeatedly spammed on others Wikipedia pages (namely, anybody who allegedly had a connection once in their life with the school, and placed in the first line of biographies). This has already been nominated because of spam concerns, but it should really be deleted again. Else all biographies will remain spammed... --Santa Sangre 00:18, 11 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The point is not in claiming the school doesn't exist, the problem is that in order to avoid spam-links on biographies creating external links to the EGS, some anons have created this EGS page in order to link it internally to all biographies: the end result is SPAMMING!!! If I asked for deletion although this has already been asked before, it is because it is getting tiring to see on the first line of all biographies of famous "hype" philosophers & artists "This guy teachs at the European Graduate School". Who cares? Wikipedia:No Advertising. This is the problem, not the question whether this school exists, whether it's good or not, whether it's a public or a private school, in Switzerland, in Italy or in Turkey. Some solution needs to be found for this spamming; if this page is not deleted, maybe by banning the users who keep on spamming. BTW, User:Europeangraduateschool has created itself a page a few days ago, as a new spam attempt? Is Wikipedia going to be used as a platform for unscrupulous and cynical schools? (this is what this spamming gives as opinion on that school, whatever the reality is). Santa Sangre 22:09, 11 June 2006 (UTC) Beside it is totally dishonest making this list of alleged teachers without giving precisions: these people might have been for two hours on the campus and they are listed as if they teach there. Note that attempts to correct this have been reverted by anons. Santa Sangre 22:12, 11 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I'll be grateful not to have to deal with intimidations on my talk page. Thanks, Santa Sangre 21:49, 12 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Question. Does this school actually exist? DarthVader 00:53, 11 June 2006 (UTC) Keep. This school does exist and is therefore notable, and therefore the article should be kept. If the statements in the article are false, then they should be removed. Previous AfD discussion is here. DarthVader 00:57, 11 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep per Darth Adambiswanger1 01:05, 11 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep per Vader. --Arnzy (whats up?) 01:10, 11 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Only one professor in residence? It's a funny type of school. However it's apparently accredited, so a marginal keep — RJH (talk) 01:11, 11 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • This is either a hoax on a massive scale or definitely notable. Keep until someone establishes hoaxity. ~ trialsanderrors 02:04, 11 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    I still think this is fishy but no evidence of hoaxity has been offered, so Keep it is, but vote to Delete all the spam entries left on the various "faculty's" entries.~ trialsanderrors 18:06, 11 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    Withholding my vote, see discussion below. ~ trialsanderrors 23:37, 12 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep since it seems to be a real school, but the long list smacks of advertising NOT of an encyclopedia. Interlingua 03:21, 11 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep and remove the advertising, unless this is a hoax. --Coredesat 03:55, 11 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong Keep - its a shame that wikipedia provides the space for such flamewars. the person who started the second nomination is uninformed and failed to do some research and verification before he vandalized the wikipedia entry. right now the students are in class but the class schedule can be found at http://egs.edu/main/phdcurriculum.html. as for your reference claim: there is a search engine called google and a simple search query would have opened your eyes. there are hundreds of references, links and disclaimers. please allow me to add just three references: dj spooky (6.2-6.5 Saas Fee, Switzerland: Annual teaching period at European Graduate School) http://www.djspooky.com/stage.html or http://www.djspooky.com/articles.html ('Last but not least, I'm also a "faculty member" of the European Graduate School, an experimental environment for discussion of issues involving contemporary culture outside of a normal academic environment'). http://www.djspooky.com/stage.html, bruce sterlings class outline is posted at wired: http://blog.wired.com/sterling/index.blog?from=20060602 and here you can even find some of the lecture material: (http://blog.wired.com/sterling/powerchart.jpg and http://blog.wired.com/sterling/hackerchart.jpg ). there was even a live stream: http://lists.indymedia.org/pipermail/imc-audio/2006-May/0528-0n.html ... as for the other professors: john perry barlow was here last week, manuel de landa just left the classroom, jean luc nancy is teaching (im sorry for the shameless self-promotion but there are more links and it took me just two min to find a few references ... in 10 min it should be possible to find the entire faculty history - i guess Santa Sangre didnt bother ...) thank you for your consideration.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.221.252.139 (talk • contribs)
    • Response Afd nomination and subsequent discussion on Wikipedia is not a "flame war". There's no need to be condescending about google searches etc.. I couldn't find any evidence of vandalism by Santa Sangre in the article history. Bwithh 21:56, 11 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    • Response I don't give a... that "Manuel de Landa just left the classroom" and that "J-L Nancy is teaching" and that Albert Einstein will soon begin to speak through the class-room thanks to a spiritualist reunion of the most famous "post-modern" philosophers! And I considers it despisable to use Wikipedia for such financial instrumentalization. If Manuel de Landa was willing to make a three-hour course there in order to win big bucks in five minutes, good for him$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ But Wikipedia is not here so you can duplicate the brand EGS on all Wikipedia biographies, create a User:Europeangraduateschool to make a self-advertising forum, and make a stupid page on a school nobody cares about but is so good everybody should know about & pay the big $$$$$$ to go there in Switzerland. Wikipedia is not a research engine for private schools! Santa Sangre 22:17, 11 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    • Hey, hey, let's simmer down. Keep it civil please. Bwithh 22:20, 11 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong Keep - This is totally ridiculous. Like I said last time, I'm enrolled in this school, I got a federal stafford loan to come here because it is recognized by the US govt as an institution. Here are my photos of my stay here:

http://flickr.com/photos/87338747@N00/ http://flickr.com/photos/87338747@N00/153779319/ which show the EGS buildings, clearly labeled. Do buildings mean its a real school? Feel free to put that photo of the EGS main hall in the wikipedia entry. Or do students? Or professors? I'm happy to post more photos of dj spooky, bruce sterling, john barlow, gaspar noe and the other professors who were here this summer, but I don't think that's necessary. Here's my blog describing my experience here: http://deletetheborder.org/lotu5 We also webcast one of the lectures this year. I haven't posted the archive of that video online yet, but I can if that's necessary. Really folks, you're making a joke out of fact here and doing serious damage to wikipedia's credibility.

    • Comment You are making "serious damage to Wikipedia's credibility" by spamming this school on all biographies. Santa Sangre 22:19, 11 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

--lotu5 14:11, 11 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

    • I looked at the pictures on Flicker there and to me they don't show very much. There's some people hanging out and walking around by some buildings. Some look like apartments and some look like a retreat center or ski-lodge or something. And then there's a sign on a wall that says "European Graduate School." There's no good evidence that it's not just a big joke/hoax. ENpeeOHvee 21:34, 12 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

EGS is authentic, as are its professors and degrees. Will Sims, Assistant Professor, VCU School of Mass Communications.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Will Sims (talk • contribs)

Users first and only edit above, account created on 13:29, 11 June 2006. Likely sock.--Andeh 16:23, 11 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Not everybody who signs up to vote on an AfD is a sockpuppet. Any further evidence? ~ trialsanderrors 18:06, 11 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
There are obviously socks, if not this one others. The message which immediately succeeds is totally intolerable: as if questionning the EGS brings tyranny! Wikipedia does not want to "establish open dialogue" with EGS! Santa Sangre 22:21, 11 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong Keep We are posting this message to establish open dialogue with Wikipedia and render a permanent resolution regarding Wikipedian assaults upon European Graduate School and the legitimacy of its Wikipedia entry. As European Graduate School is essentially committed to openness, we find great harmony with the central aims of Wikipedia. It is from such perspective that EGS is concerned with the abuse of openness that certain users of Wikipedia display in continuing to attack our institution and its Wikipedia entry. We are concerned not only for our ourselves, but the implications of such abuse upon the internet at large, and Wikipedia in particular. Specifically, such abuse within one of the leading internet sites, especially one promoting open and egalitarian philosophy, can easily (and unfortunately) indicate the necessary implementations of restraints on freedom of communication to ensure the continued availability of high quality reputable knowledge against the growing maelstrom of misinformation (thereby fundamentally and permanently altering the egalitarian nature of cyberspace).

European Graduate School believes those committed to the founding values of the internet should take this threat to such openness seriously.

To these ends we would like to establish the following points:

1. European Graduate School has already won the debate regarding the legitimacy of its Wikipedia article during the initial assertion towards deletion of the Wikipedia article.

2. The accusation of abuse regarding the listing of European Graduate School faculty is unfounded. Santa Sangre is simply wrong that EGS appears in the first lines of our faculty biographies in Wikipedia - one need only look to Sangre’s own list to verify this for oneself .. while their faculty status with European Graduate School is mentioned in their Wikipedia biographies the primary teaching institutions of Jean-Luc Nancy, Claire Denis, Giorgio Agamben and others is clearly listed first. The Wikipedia European Graduate School entry simply provides a list of its notable faculty as do the entries of such larger institutions as New York University .. NYU Notable Persons: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_New_York_University_People

3. The accusation that European Graduate School information is independently unverified is unfounded: a simple Google search can establish this fact. In addition to the external links provided by the previous entries (including mention in Wired magazine blog and DJ Spooky’s website), there are many other examples of independent reference to European Graduate School. Victor Vitanza http://www.victorvitanza.com/evitaw.html#education

Avital Ronell http://www.mediamatic.net/article-6244-en.html

Slavoj Zizek http://www.uvi.si/XLLMSlovenia/programme/slavoj-zizek/

Peter Greenaway http://www.petergreenaway.co.uk/pglinks.htm

More information and a comparison with other/similar programs can be found here: http://www.bostonphoenix.com/boston/news_features/other_stories/documents/02824838.htm The previous submissions also failed to address the videolectures/videoclips presented here: http://www.egs.edu/main/videolectures.html .

(Note: We thought it appropriate to include below a recent photograph of Jean Luc Nancy with his 2006 student cohort at the Saas-Fee campus of European Graduate School. As one can see in the photograph, ensuring the quality of Wikipedia articles is important to Jean-Luc as well as EGS, and stimulated some vigourous intellectual exchanges during this summer residency. EGS students are excited to continue these discussions within Wikipedia - in fact two students have already expressed their personal opinions in the previous discussions.)

Jean-Luc Nancy. Jean Luc Nancy exploring the Quality Control Mechanisms of Wikipedia. European Graduate School, Switzerland. June 11, 2006

4. In keeping with its committed open philosophy, European Graduate School invites meaningful dialogue with Wikipedia to resolve issues with the EGS Wikipedia entry. The university is currently considering the release through Wikipedia, under Creative Commons license, holdings from its extensive image and video archives - a catalogue including photographs, exclusive European Graduate School lectures and seminars by notable EGS faculty. If Wikipedia is interested in such material please contact European Graduate School either directly or through the talk page of this Wikipedia user account.

The following pages might serve as examples:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Perry_Barlow

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Claire_Denis

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean-Luc_Nancy

To promote such a dialogue with Wikipedia, European Graduate School invites wishes, proposals, and critiques to the discussion page of the Wikipedia article. The students and faculty of European Graduate School sincerely thank Wikipedia for its consideration of these points, and EGS looks forward to an increasingly close relationship with Wikipedia towards the achievement of our common aim of open access to knowledge. Europeangraduateschool 18:16, 11 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

  • Keep For a start Tracey Emin has been linked with it for some years now. Tyrenius 19:16, 11 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep real notable school. (Slight overreaction from the EGS authorities though??). I've known about this institution for some time, though to be honest, for much of that time, I thought it was some kind of high-brow semi-scam perpetrated by Slavoj Zizek. Bwithh 19:30, 11 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • I think this should be speedied because it's the 2nd nomination without any real new evidence against notability. The only real problem is that the editor(s) of this entry put so much effort into making it appear notable that it automatically raises suspicion. ~ trialsanderrors 19:59, 11 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Sounds like there could be a critical journal article in this!!! Bwithh 20:32, 11 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I thought that's what the "Truth about EGS" link was about, but that link is dead. ~ trialsanderrors 22:04, 11 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
There's a sloooow-loading google cache of the dead site here. Basically a student faq by some random person. Deals with the "is EGS a hoax" question early on and then moves on to more practical stuff like don't forget to buy your drugs in the city before coming, you better know how to drink, and don't forget to bring mindless entertainment to keep you sane. Faq fails to do deal with the "babes" question though, which is clearly raised by the highly trenchant "Jean-Luc Nancy's Quality Control Mechanisms of Wikipedia" image above. Does John Perry Barlow have to be be shadowed/restrained by chaperones while he's there?Bwithh 22:14, 11 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Well thank God. An edgy po-mo summer-camp-slash-degree-mill without babes? We would have to file it under hoax. ~ trialsanderrors 22:34, 11 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
"while their faculty status with European Graduate School is mentioned in their Wikipedia biographies the primary teaching institutions of Jean-Luc Nancy, Claire Denis, Giorgio Agamben and others is clearly listed first.": the point is if it is relevant AT ALL to include the EGS on these people's page. IMO, this is simple spamming. It is getting very tiring to take out this spam for a private school in Switzerland, as good as it may be. This is going out of bounds. Santa Sangre 22:25, 11 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
"The university is currently considering the release through Wikipedia, under Creative Commons license, holdings from its extensive image and video archives - a catalogue including photographs, exclusive European Graduate School lectures and seminars by notable EGS faculty." Great, now they're going to post photos such as on John Perry Barlow's page everywhere, with the nice logo "EGS". Soon not one Wikipedia or one person related far or close to contemporary philosophy will not have heard of this "fantastic school where when "Manuel de Landa just left the classroom", that's because "Nancy has just arrived..." And that's "critical" theory?? "Philosophers have only interpreted the world, the point now is to change it." Santa Sangre 22:29, 11 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • I just removed the line "Rogue philosopher, and enigmatic and inspirational professor" from Wolfgang Schirmacher's article (which badly needs cleanup) - Wolfgang is not just the dean of EGS but seems to be the founding/driving force behind EGS... his institution-creating efforts are admirable but these shouldnt extend to over-selling EGS on wikipedia... Bwithh 22:41, 11 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment. The school does seem to be somewhat notable [1] but it probably isn't the most notable thing in the lives of many who have spent a summer there. And some of the external links are dead or of questionable significance -- the listing in gradschools.com? one student's blog entry? I'd keep and clean up, and cease spamming other Wikipedia articles. BuckRose 22:50, 11 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment I left a welcome message on User_talk:Europeangraduateschool. I agree the carpet linking is a bit over the top but this is better addressed by engaging the editors than by outright hostility. ~ trialsanderrors 23:21, 11 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete - I'm not convinced that this school actually exists. I couldn't find anything verifiable about it, and one thing that struck me as odd was that when I was searching for stuff about it, I could find anyone who said that they hated this school, that it sucked, that they couldn't stand it, etc. Real schools usally evoke such feelings - both from the rivalry/competition of other schools and the stress and distress that they can put on their students and faculty. So if this school is real then it must be the most well-liked school (by its students and faculty and other schools) of any school in the whole history of the world! And if this were the case then it would have recieved a lot of media attention and it wouldn't be so hard for us to ample verifiable evidence of its existance. ENpeeOHvee 04:27, 12 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    Well the guy Bwithh linked to above didn't sound all too happy. But I see your point. ~ trialsanderrors 04:52, 12 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    Also try this blog (though in the end he says its was all a good experience.. Bwithh 15:58, 12 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    So the only newspaper source we actually have so far is the Boston Phoenix entry? If so, Saas-Fee, we have a problem, since the inclusion criterion is WP:V and not WP:X. ~ trialsanderrors 19:09, 12 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    I ran a multi-decade Factiva newspaper and magazine database search (which covers English, German and French language publications) - while there are perhaps 40-50ish 20-30 articles which mention the EGS in some way (usually as a brief reference in describing a person's background) there are veeeeeery few articles which actually describe the EGS (Perhaps this more traditional media outreach channel is something the EGS press office should focus its efforts on rather than the new-fangled wikipedia avenue?). The best English one I could find was a brief Los Angeles Times profile which is, as the article itself admits, almost entirely blurby quotes (e.g. by faculty inc. DJ Spooky) taken directly from the the EGS website. Unfortunately the latimes.com archive excerpt is entirely preoccupied with DJ Spooky's rewarding experiences with the Reader's Digest's monthly "Improve Your Word Power" column. So you could either drop $4 to buy the full article or trust my own copyright-respecting excerpt from the Factiva database:
Sunday Calendar; Calendar Desk; Sunday_calendar
VERBATIM So much percolating in the avant mind
376 words
20 April 2003
Los Angeles Times
Home Edition
E-3
English
Copyright 2003 Los Angeles Times
The media and communications program of the European Graduate School, a 9-year-old institution based
in Germany, Switzerland and New York, and offering advanced degrees in a number of specialties,
describes itself in expansive terms: "Aiming at creative breakthroughs and theoretical paradigm
shifts," its literature says, it brings students together with "visionaries and philosophers of the
media world."
On the school's Web site (www.egs.edu), a quick scan of quotes from some of those "visionaries and
philosophers" (faculty members range from "black lady of deconstruction" Avital Ronell to New York
musician and conceptual artist Paul D. Miller, a.k.a. DJ Spooky That Subliminal Kid) gives a
kaleidoscopic taste of how minds are working in the avant-media realm:

Bwithh 19:33, 12 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

  • Speedy keep. This is a bad faith nomination by an editor who is making a WP:POINT out of annoyance with some other editors who have overlinked to the EGS page. But there's not even the remotest plausible claim that EGS in non-notable. LotLE×talk 21:30, 12 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Well, perhaps the fact that they are spamming Wikipedia & that it seems to be difficult to find any definitive source that would help us stop being suspicious from such an attitude? The mail above posted by the EGS is a symptom; which respectable institution would have taken the time to actually do this? Oh, sure, it is only genuine interest for "new technologies" and "cooperative work"... Santa Sangre 21:48, 12 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    • If you ignore the poor manners of the nominator you'll see that we actually have a hard time finding enough reliable sources to verify the scope of the operation. I don't share the doubts that this place exists, but existence is not the inclusion criterion. It's coverage in reputable media. ~ trialsanderrors 21:51, 12 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I think some people affiliated with the school have been a little too devoted to self-aggrandizement, sure. But look at the links the EGS account gives for external faculty/personal pages of Ronell, Zizek, Greenaway and DJ Spooky. Those links by themselves are more than enough to verify that highly notable people are (loosely) affiliated with the school. None of those are hosted by EGS. I wince a bit at the jargony stuff about "openness", "collaboration", "the net" and all that. I wouldn't necessarily argue against the propositions that the school is "self-important" or "goofy", but it's pretty obviously not a hoax. The defunct journal October had some of that quality, but also published some really good work (by some overlapping names). LotLE×talk 22:56, 12 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
The Ronell, Zizek, and Greenaway pages are simply entries that link to the EGS website for whatever reason, but have no content on EGS itself. Spooky says he's "faculty" in quotes, what does that mean? October went out of business in 2000, and a JSTOR search comes up empty. How can a school that claims to have such notable faculty so completely elude media interest? No New York Times, Neue Zürcher Zeitung, Der Spiegel? ~ trialsanderrors 23:37, 12 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
If it's a hoax, it's a hoax that Ronell, Zizek and Greenaway are participating in; that would actually be more notable than is a small school of recent incorporation... but that would be a different type of article. In any case, it's not a hoax. Google shows 122k hits, for gosh sake. EGS itself comes up first, and WP is second; but not scrolling very far we get neutral mentions like: http://schools.gradschools.com/graduate-schools/European-Grad-School.html, http://www.google.com/Top/Reference/Education/Colleges_and_Universities/Europe/Switzerland/European_Graduate_School/, http://acronyms.thefreedictionary.com/European+Graduate+School.
I don't believe it's a hoax (maybe those people who do would like to chime in), it just fails WP's Verifiability criterion and we can't write an article on it. This is not a vote on whether we ok it if the EGSers writes their own article, it's a vote on whether there are enough reliable sources to base an article on. And DJ Spooky's blog, or Peter Greenaway's link site, simply don't qualify as reliable sources. ~ trialsanderrors 01:55, 13 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
What do you mean "write their own article"? Do you have some evidence that one of the contributors to the article is an official representative of EGS, or something? I do notice a couple IP addresses that seem to edit primarily this article; but then almost all the edits by the AfD nominator, Santa Sangre, are about EGS too.
  • Comment I formally disclaim that "all my edits" are about EGS. You may have a quick look at my contributions to verify this. I apologize for what may have been perceived as "uncivilized manners" that don't respect Wikipedia rules, I am not familiar with all of them and I have very strong suspicions against this school, which are founded on the spam I've observed on Wikipedia biographies (as I've said over & over; I repeat that when I first heard of the EGS on Wikipedia, I had the same attitude as "Lulu" who thought it strange that I consider the internal link to be "spam" - someone had deleted it for that reason -. A few weeks later I understood the user's annoyal and the reason for its removal, and I see that Internet research does not provide any external sources on the notability of this school. If we were to include all private schools no matter how notable they are and how limited the sources on them are, we would be effectively transforming Wikipedia into a "Trojan horse" for advertising. Furthermore, I am surely not the only one to find it profoundly dishonest to put such an awesome lists of "teachers" without providing proof that they were there & precisions on their presence (if they were there one hour once, two hours twice, all year long, etc.) Finally, the anonymity of the users who've edited this page & who've repeatedly profited from the fact that it was a low-traffic page (surely something they hope to get higher, basing themselves on internal spam — and maybe external advertising for Wikipedia, so the Google hit rise? We are starting to get familiar with techniques to boost one's site's popularity, and Wikipedia certainly is a powerful platform for this) by deleting NPOV modifications made by astoundished users as me does not encline one to put anymore trust. It is also symptomatic that with this second deletion someone has considered it necessary to create a EGS page. To end with what I began in this disclaimer, I firmly ask to Lulu to stop his ad-hominen attacks against me (falsely saying that main of my edits are related to the EGS) and his intimidation on my talk page. This does not encline me to believe in Lulu's neutrality, although I certainly do believe on his good faith (which seems not to be his case if one is to believe his own user page ; I'm not sure if Lulu has understood that presupposition of good faith is like "presupposition of innocence": the matter is not what you believe about another user ("when it is evidently self-absent" - how do you judge that mate?) but the fact that, whatever you believe, you should maintain as an a priori rule that this user is doing things with good faith; i.e. he is presumed innocent until judged guilty.) Therefore, I would be thankful for Lulu to not condemn me before having suited me, if such is his intent (see the threats on my talk page). Thank you, and my highest regards, peace Santa Sangre 07:03, 14 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I can't really make sense of your claim, Trialsanderrors, that the article topic "fails WP:V]". If you don't think it's a hoax, presumably you think it's a school. There's a stub right there, no? An AfD isn't a vote on the specific content that's in an article currently, but on whether the topic itself is notable. If some particular fact purported in the article seems unverifiable, remove that fact, not the topic itself. Still, even if some information is sourced to EGS official sources, that isn't necessarily unacceptable. I haven't looked, but I'm pretty sure a lot of the information on Yale University comes from the uni's own materials. Or to pick something more modest, the article on Holyoke Community College (a school near me, with which I've never had any affilation beyond driving past) is pretty obviously taken almost entirely from the college's own website. LotLE×talk 02:21, 13 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
It's a bit of a common fallacy around here to point at other questionable articles in order to lend credence to the one at hand. If the HCC article is swiped from the school website, the entry schould at least be tagged with a POV tag. Also, technically it doesn't matter who edits the article, we also can't write an article based on our own impressions, DJ Spooky's weblog or a Flickr page. My point is quite simply: If you followed WP policies on using only reliable sources (no school website, no blog entries, no future publications), what would you be able to put in the article? AfD's are there to allow editors to establish that WP guidelines are fulfilled. So far the only ones I've seen try to do this are Bwithh, ENpeeOHvee and me. And we pretty much came up empty. ~ trialsanderrors 16:51, 13 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep. Whether or not there is spam for the European Graduate School in other pages has nothing to do with whether this article should be kept. This nomination is misconceived. If it fails, will the article be listed for a third time? Spacepotato 03:03, 13 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, because as you mentioned, the nomination is misconceived and fails to get to the heart of the problem. ~ trialsanderrors 03:08, 13 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
What is the heart of the problem? If it is WikiSelfPromotion by the EGS, this is nothing extraordinary. Spacepotato 03:23, 13 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
An absolute dearth of news coverage of an institution that seems eminently newsworthy. ~ trialsanderrors 03:54, 13 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I don't find this dearth surprising, considering that the EGS is a small, recently established school, with only one full-time faculty member. Alliant International University, a much larger institution, only gets three distinct hits on Google News. As for the EGS's eminent part-time faculty members, their association with the school does not appear to be intimate. DJ Spooky's teaching period, for example, is four days. Spacepotato 09:28, 13 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Note that according to the LA Times article above, EGS has been around since around 1994. So not really recently established. Bwithh 13:35, 13 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]


  • Comment The European Graduate School sincerely thanks those participating in this discussion. As previously expressed we are always open for meaningful/ constructive critique, and are committed to transparency of information regarding our institution and its Wikipedia entry. This forum is designed to openly engage the Wikipedia community in questions about European Graduate School, including its participation in open access to knowledge initiatives, media programmes, and its educational pedagogy. We refer Wikipedians to general search engines and the official EGS website for answers to rudimentary questions (including accreditation, courses and degree plans); video lectures, webcasts, as well as independent newspaper articles and blog entries (particularly those of Bruce Sterling and DJ Spooky); and invite the public to contact year-long faculty members directly for answers to questions of a more specific nature. European Graduate School believes that free and open discussion about itself and its impact upon postmodern media landscapes will not only strengthen our reputation but develop new democratic standards of excellence in the field of communications at large.
DJ Spooky. Digital Counter. Hijack. DJ Spooky expressing his thoughts concerning Wikipedia in a very humorous way. European Graduate School, Switzerland. June 12, 2006

The European Graduate School Wikipedia entry is recently subject to various sorts of abuse, which generally (and unfoundedly) question the authenticity and quality standards of the institution. The EGS administration feels these issues were repeatedly resolved according to Wikipedia’s policies. While we admit that the EGS entry is far from perfect, its is our institutional policy not to edit the Wikipedia entries of our institution and its faculty. Of course members of the European Graduate School community are free (as any Wikipedian) to independently edit any Wikipedia articles, and the reasonable person can easily understand the impossibility of strictly regulating the private behaviour of 600+ adult students from around the world.

As an established yet still growing university, European Graduate School welcomes all thoughtful contributions towards the improved quality of its educational programmes and interfaces with the academe. We value the recent Wikipedia discussion about our educational model as an engaging example of the practical issues involved with developing and preserving a philosophy of openness in cyberspace. Again, sincere thanks to all the participants in that conversation.Europeangraduateschool 12:25, 13 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

    • Comment. This is not a "forum" to "engage the Wikipedia community in questions about EGS". If you would stop using your official business newspeak (which quite clearly identifies yourself as a marketing or public communication type of person) and stop saying "white" when you hear "black", you would acknowledge the fact that we are discussing:
      • if your institution is notable enough to be included here
      • if we have independent sources (doesn't seems so, but you seem to be keen on making photos as quick as you can, such as this photo of Dj Spooky where you ask him to engage in the Wikipedia debate - that's fair game...), which doesn't seems the case. I won't give you any advice on public relations, but if you muse on that you might need some, I'll be pleased to be your guest... Not that I'm a "fashion maker", but it seems that you do have some troubles which might benefit from amateur, external views :)
      • if what you're doing is not actually spam & auto-promotion, both on Wikipedia & through Wikipedia (spamming Wikipedia with EGS links boost your Google hit, you do know that, don't you?)
      • The creation of your own user page, while perfectly acceptable on a general way, is highly suspicious due to its timing. Your disclaimer are also highly suspicious, you do know that the problem of "newspeak" is that the few sceptics out there read "black" when we see "white" (a method surely acquired from Salvador Dali's paranoiac-critic method, which you are surely familiar with, and others innovative ways of reading that some persons have developed over the age, in particular when confronted to official censorship - you surely are familiar with Leo Strauss' founding works on "suspicious reading" also)... So, when we see that you state that "its is our institutional policy not to edit the Wikipedia entries of our institution and its faculty" and then put the responsibility on your alumni, when no one has ever accused you of self-editing and when almost only anonymous users have contributed to the EGS page is quite suspicious, don't you think? If not, close your school & read again Freud (instead of Sun Tzu and other commercial hype readings), that might be useful for your futures endeavours.
      • Last but not least, in the same sense that I've politedly requested from Lulu not to stop considering that I edit on good faiths (we are not in a Stalinian trial here, although I've speaken of "paranoiac" methods, do not read more than what I write), I would ask you not to make unfounded accusations such as "The European Graduate School Wikipedia entry is recently subject to various sorts of abuse, which generally (and unfoundedly) question the authenticity and quality standards of the institution.", which, if you stop using your newspeak & really were "keen on Wikipedia", you would have simply called "vandalism". Although this nomination may failed to achieve its aim (stopping your spammming & establishing your unnotability), I am quite surprised to see your reaction, which have only confirmed my fears. You are definitely using Wikipedia for commercial purposes, you're probably not the first, nor the last one, but since you seem to be one of the main source on the Internet about your school, I would require from you to precise and prove that EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THESE GENIUSES HAVE ACTUALLY BEEN TO YOUR SCHOOL. PS: in the era of images, it is quite doubtful to present "photos" as "proof". We would expect more from a school which keeps inviting "critical theorists". CQFD. Santa Sangre 07:26, 14 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep, this school is perfectly verifiable through reliable sources and unquestionably notable. What's next, nominating air for deletion? Silensor 17:35, 13 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Here are the current sources in the article itself:
  • If you know of any reliable sources we would be very very obliged if you could add them. Thank you. ~ trialsanderrors 17:53, 13 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    • I found a fairly substantial profile (about 700 words) of EGS in the Factiva database from the Swiss business magazine CASH (which seems fairly reputable) from July 9, 1999. Unfortunately its in German and its not available on the web. Bwithh 18:46, 14 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
        • Sorry I missed this. What is the gist of the article? No matter the language/access limitations, you should probably cite it and paraphrase key comments. ~ trialsanderrors 18:13, 17 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment, I worked on the EGS page a fair amount, writing original content and adding images. Much of that has now been removed. Why? Is there a previous version to return to? Are people maliciously deleting content? --lotu5 19:46, 13 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    Yes and no. You can click on the history tab on top of the entry and review the changes made, and if necessary revert to a prior version. As about maliciously deleting content, the edits I've looked at seem to be very much within the policies of WP. ~ trialsanderrors 20:22, 13 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Speedy Keep this is a WTF type of listing, obviously the place exists (meets WP:Verifiable), obviously we can proove DJ Spooky teaches there (WP:Verifiable) ... by my understanding that certainly makes it a notable school and should be an obvious duh! keep!  ALKIVAR™ 17:59, 13 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'm gonna vote Cautious Keep even though I'm annoyed with the lazy editors who can't be arsed to establish verifiability rather than just alleging it, not to mention the blustery Officiousspeak of User:Europeangraduateschool. I'm gonna keep this on my watchlist though and see if someone actually can provide reliable sources rather than just the school webpage and various bits of cyberscree, and I might put it up for AfD again if the entry isn't backed by reliable third party sources in the near future. ~ trialsanderrors 20:22, 13 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Sure, you might renominate it. And I might raise an RfC complaint for a bad faith nomination (it was pretty tempting in this instance, though they rarely do anything good). LotLE×talk 20:48, 13 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
That's your prerogative, Lulu. ~ trialsanderrors 20:57, 13 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Comment. It is consistent with WP:V to use the EGS's website as a source for the EGS article, within reason. Spacepotato 22:53, 13 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
One limitation being statements about third parties, which this site makes quite massively. ~ trialsanderrors 23:49, 13 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Speedy Keep EGS is chartered by the canton of Valais and is relatively well known amongst communication students in Europe. Ulpian 20:30, 13 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    • Comment I have removed Lulu's photos of his stay there (and you accuse of me of being partial, while you admit having studied there? are you kidding me?!!!) and EGS' news photos (with quite unadequate caption). Photos are not proofs (something which a school versed on "critical theory" would be expected to know) and are quite unnecessary on an AfD page. Your claimed interest in "news technologies" would incline one to believe that you understand that this is not a forum and that this page is not supposed to make you advertising. Santa Sangre 07:32, 14 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
      • I just restored the EGS photos, which were fine, in my opinion. What's the justification for removing these? You think they're unnecessary but that's not reason enough in afd discussion. Santa Sangre's actions are making me start to wonder if he/she is in fact being malicious, or vindicative. Please don't take this kind of action to alter other people's arguments Bwithh 11:56, 14 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
This is definitely getting into "paranoid conspiracy" territory by Santa Sangre. I think there's some cruft in this discussion, actually, but I've never taken a photo of EGS. I've never been to EGS or taken a course from them. In fact, I've never been in Switzerland (seems like a nice place, but I haven't been there). I've never posted any photo relating to EGS, even one taken by someone else; nor have I ever edited the EGS WP article. About the closest I come to any connection is that I have met a couple of the guest faculty EGS has had (but I never talked about EGS with them; can't see why that would have come up, and probably they were guest faculty later than when I met them). And yet apparently I'm part of this same global conspiracy to advertise for this school, or hoax, or plot, or whatever Santa Sangre's latest fantasy of its nature is. LotLE×talk 17:18, 14 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I apologize Lulu, I apparently confused you with User:Lotu5. Santa Sangre 17:52, 17 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    • I also wonder on Lulu's needs to counsel EGS on the best way to use Wikipedia (see EGS's talk page). If EGS is interested in "news technologies", surely it can get this on its own? Was that really useful (I'm not even asking if it was "necessary")? Santa Sangre 07:36, 14 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
      • I don't see anything wrong with "Lulu"'s advice to EGS. Bwithh 12:26, 14 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    • An interesting edit by anon who linked several biographies to EGS. We can see an example of the good contributions made by this user there. Santa Sangre 08:01, 14 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment, more malicious deletion, even on this page! I'm sadly disappointed to see the malicious behavior of so called "objective" editors here on wikipedia. Someone deleted the links to my photos, so I put them back. --lotu5 11:34, 14 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Speedy Keep Bad faith nomination. David Sneek 09:38, 14 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment by Marc Mongenet 10:58, 14 June 2006 (UTC) Here is what the Canton of Valais writes about itself [2] (in French, here is my translation and wikification) :[reply]
    TRAINING AND RESEARCH - The department of Education, Culture and Sport organizes and oversees training and research in Valais. Only Romand canton without university, Valais is nevertheless an important place for research and training. Centers like Institut universitaire Kurt Bösch in Bramois or the Alpenforschung in Brig have an important reputation out of the borders of the canton.
    So, writing that the EGS is the University of Valais is highly misleading. It is a small private school in a remote skiing resort that calls itself a universtity. It may do so, but it has nothing to do with 'real' (and all public) universities of Switzerland (University of Lausanne, University of Geneva, EPFL, ETHZ...) and nobody in Switzerland considers such schools as universities (this why canton of Valais itself writes it has got no university, which is common knowledge in Switzerland). Marc Mongenet 10:58, 14 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Here is an English page from the Rectors' Conference of Swiss Universities that talks a bit about Swiss graduate instiutions which backs up Marc Mongenet's point:"The following are considered as institutions of higher education: the Graduate Institute for International Studies (Institut universitaire de hautes études internationales IUHEI) in Geneva, the Graduate Institute for Advanced Public Administration (Institut de hautes études en administration publique IDHEAP) in Lausanne, the Graduate Institute Kurt Bösch (Institut Universitaire Kurt Bösch, IUKB) in Sion and the Graduate Institute of Development Studies (Institut universitaire d’études du développement, IUED) in Geneva. In addition to the institutes of higher education mentioned above, there are a number of private colleges which offer courses based on the Anglo-Saxon system. The studies and examinations offered by these colleges are not recognized in Switzerland. Some of these colleges may even offer courses which are not serious. We therefore advise anyone interested in following such a course to make careful initial investigations into the problem of recognition.". This does not mean that EGS is not notable, of course - and where does anyone claim the EGS is the University of Valais? Bwithh 12:19, 14 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
It was written University of Wallis (Wallis is Valais in German) before I changed it. Marc Mongenet 15:03, 14 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Fwiw, EGS is not listed here, despite having an .edu domain. (Also noteworthy that there are various EGS webpages, and the egs.edu page is not the university webpage. That's egsuniversity.org. ~ trialsanderrors 16:21, 14 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Hmmm... I'm not sure what that edu domain list is based on. I mean it doesn't include the UK's top business school, the London Business School which has the domain http://www.london.edu Bwithh 18:59, 14 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
If you search on the educause whois database, you'll get the registration info for egs.edu Bwithh 19:07, 14 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Not an expert but I remember LBS sneaked in before they closed the registration to non-US schools. It seems they opened it again under some conditions (US accreditation). Looks like EGS got around it because they have this New York address, although I'm still in the dark about their NYC and Dresden operations. ~ trialsanderrors 21:30, 14 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
OK this seems to answer it:
  • Domain record activated: 26-Sep-1997
  • According to the Cooperative Agreement between EDUCAUSE and the U.S. Department of Commerce, all .edu names in existence as of October 29, 2001, are "grandfathered." This means that everyone who already had a .edu name by that date (October 29, 2001), regardless of current or past eligibility requirements, is allowed to keep those .edu names.
~ trialsanderrors 21:45, 14 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Here are two more sources:

  • Žižek on his time at EGS: "We meet there every year, are engaged for three weeks, I can bring my wife, do a 90 minute lecture and am free afterwards."
  • The Center for Accreditation and Quality Assurance (OAQ) lists EGS as accredited in process of accreditation (as of 2005) for preliminary exams, but not for Bachelors, Masters, PhD's, or as an institution.

~ trialsanderrors 07:37, 16 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

  • Strong keep very well known, important, notable institution with an important group of teachers. Why the hell is this being nominated? Deleuze 12:53, 16 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • KEEP I'm about to enter my third year with EGS and while they may have a tendency for self-promotion, it's a very new school that first has to gain credibility through its faculty until it has enough graduates out there to speak on its behalf. When we all showed up at this dreamy alpine village, we still thought it was a hoax, but it wasn't. It's a truly challenging and nonconventional environment. It's not perfect, but it certainly does exist.

As long as they all teach there; as long as the pictures the school has added on its pages are real I am fine. Here in Germany I would never have a chance to meet and study with these people (not sure about the US) - but the Swiss school suits me fine. There are even videoclips listed at the faculty pages of European Graduate School (http://www.egs.edu/main/videolectures.html) and the photos listed at the individual resource pages are quite amusing ... but they are certainly fake :) They must be ... (The video clips are either really good animations or Giorgio Agamben, Claire Denis, Chris Fynsk, Peter Greenaway, Agnes Varda, Alain Badiou, Chantal Akerman, Jean Baudrillard, Yve Alain Bois, Victor Burgin, Shelley jackson, Claude Lanzmann, Victor Vitanza, Michael Schmidt, Sandy Stone, Martin Hielscher, and DJ Spooky really teach there.) Another professor or guest speaker has discussed EGS and its faculty on his personal blog (Caveh Zahedi http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0004354/ , Blog>http://www.cavehzahedi.com/ - http://blogs.indiewire.com/caveh/ ) - he personally met some other filmmakers including the Quay Brothers ( http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0093025/ ), Claire Denis ( http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0219136/ ), DJ Spooky and Jean Luc Nancy. Either EGS can really mind control all these thinkers and artists and influence their blogs, websites and relationships - or ... The student blogs and statements are of the usual type, some are good others are less enlightening ... Im not worried about that - actually i would be more worried if such entries wouldnt be there :) (Please check: Elizabeth Albrycht http://ringblog.typepad.com/corporatepr/ , Paul Tulipana http://www.paultulipana.net/egs/ , Alexander Klemm http://www.alexanderklemm.ch/?European_Graduate_School:Ph.D._Program , and editor lotu 5 http://deletetheborder.org/node/591/ ). Now add the few newspaper articles and the AfD smells bad faith and has been started by one very "determined" editor with a certain agenda - the educational model of EGS and the faculty it offers can certainly pose a challenge for other minds and institutions. So far most comments are pro keep - Im looking forward to similar discussions in Switzerland next year. Thank you for this discussion.Philophil

Thank you for your input. But you should read the WP criteria for inclusion before you offer an essentially redundant list of links. The issues is not existence, it is verifiable via reputable, third party sources. Self-descriptions and blog entries are generally not considered reliable sources. But if you are aware of any newspaper articles, any scholarly or governmental sources that verify the claims on the EGS website or the various comments above and can add them here, your contribution is useful. I'm sure if you check with the EGS administration they can give you approriate leads to news coverage. ~ trialsanderrors 16:10, 17 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'm going to close this in a minute but not before I make a comment deprecating the personal tone of the above debate. Just state what you think should happen and give rational considerations in support. Don't attack other users. Metamagician3000 14:33, 18 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
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