Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Eugene Messler
- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was keep. There is some disagreement about his exact route to notability, but there is now clear consensus that he is notable Nosebagbear (talk) 21:53, 11 February 2020 (UTC)
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- Eugene Messler (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log · Stats)
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Fails WP:GNG, as I cannot find any coverage online outside of an obituary republished in a couple newspapers. Fails WP:NGRIDIRON, having never played professionally, and WP:NCOLLATH. Coached a now-Division III football program for four games in 1894, and later coached a professionally football team four a few seasons before the creation of the NFL 23 years later. Eagles 24/7 (C) 21:38, 4 February 2020 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Sportspeople-related deletion discussions. Eagles 24/7 (C) 21:38, 4 February 2020 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of American football-related deletion discussions. Eagles 24/7 (C) 21:38, 4 February 2020 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Connecticut-related deletion discussions. Eagles 24/7 (C) 21:38, 4 February 2020 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Kentucky-related deletion discussions. Eagles 24/7 (C) 21:38, 4 February 2020 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Pennsylvania-related deletion discussions. Eagles 24/7 (C) 21:38, 4 February 2020 (UTC)
- Delete: I'm finding nothing available online except for the ref that's already in the article. Even if there are some additional vintage text sources that could be scoured for this guy, he doesn't appear to have done anything in his career that would establish his notability. Skeletor3000 (talk) 21:53, 4 February 2020 (UTC)
- Keep. The article was in poor shape but has now been expanded. Messler played at the tackle position on Walter Camp's 1891-1893 Yale teams that won three consecutive national championships. These are the Camp teams that went a long way to inventing the modern game of American football. Messler was also the head coach of the 1894 Centre football team. He also later served as player-coach of one of the earliest professional football teams. Passes per WP:GNG with new sources added. In addition, WP:CFBCOACH notes that the College Football Wikiproject "considers all head coaches (past and present) of notable college football programs to be notable." While Centre Colonels football is now a lower-tier program, it was one of the truly notable programs in the early days of Southern football. Indeed, Messler's 1894 team competed at a high level with games against major Southern teams of the day, including a victory over Kentucky State (i.e. the University of Kentucky) and a close loss to Vanderbilt. Cbl62 (talk) 00:40, 6 February 2020 (UTC)
- Keep per Cbl62. Jweiss11 (talk) 00:47, 6 February 2020 (UTC)
- Keep per Cb162. Note, that point also fits WP:NOTTEMPORARY, as Cbl62 (talk · contribs) mentioned, Centre was a major college program pre-NCAA DI-A era. He also coached a notable pre-NFL professional team. If Ohio State drops to DIII and "is now DIII", that doesn't change past notability. Bhockey10 (talk) 02:32, 6 February 2020 (UTC)
Commentchanged vote below Unfortunately, none of the refs in the article seem to show WP:GNG on their own with one exception. The first book is a family history written by someone with the same last name, so not independent. The Who's Who in American Sports sent everyone in that book a questionnaire, so even though it can help verify him, the information seems to have come from Messler himself. The Pittsburgh Dispatch is a clipping of a drawing of all of the players on the Yale squad. The next three are reference websites. The Encyclopedia of American Biography might be a good source, I can't tell how they verify the information. Finally, the last reference is an obituary. I'm no specifically voting !delete, but I did my own Newspapers.com search of "Eugene Messler Yale" and didn't find anything (he may have been on the rowing team which beat Harvard in 1893) but I'm hopeful another qualifying source or two can be found, especially since he was the president of an industrial company in Pittsburgh. But if that can't happen, I don't necessarily support keeping this. Furthermore, WP:CFBCOACH cannot overrule WP:GNG. SportingFlyer T·C 03:37, 6 February 2020 (UTC)
- As reflected in WP:CFBCOACH, members of the College Football Wikiproject have endeavored over the past decade to create a full record of head coaches from notable college football programs. Given the coverage received, and significant role played by head coaches, this appears to be a reasonable judgment. Moreover, this judgment has been consistently respected in AfD discussions for the past decade as evidenced in the Head coach notability discussion library. Cbl62 (talk) 18:07, 7 February 2020 (UTC)
- I'm not saying it's an unreasonable assumption, just that if an article fails WP:GNG it cannot be overruled by a local guideline. Messler, at the moment, does fail WP:GNG. He doesn't fail it miserably, considering the Pittsburgh obituary, but I've done several archival searches and this is the best thing I've found so far (apart from the fact he wrote a lot of letters to the Pittsburgh opinion section, which obviously don't count) and that's about rowing and only includes a drawing of him and his name in a list.. SportingFlyer T·C 22:42, 7 February 2020 (UTC)
- As reflected in WP:CFBCOACH, members of the College Football Wikiproject have endeavored over the past decade to create a full record of head coaches from notable college football programs. Given the coverage received, and significant role played by head coaches, this appears to be a reasonable judgment. Moreover, this judgment has been consistently respected in AfD discussions for the past decade as evidenced in the Head coach notability discussion library. Cbl62 (talk) 18:07, 7 February 2020 (UTC)
- Keep Coached at the major college (at the time) and pro levels of football. This article looks reasonably good considering the time period. I'm sure there are more sources in contemporary newspapers but it would be difficult to archive them. ~EDDY (talk/contribs)~ 15:46, 7 February 2020 (UTC)
- What makes Centre College a "major college" program in 1894? It was in its fifth year of existence (fourth since coming back from a 10-year hiatus), and played in 13 total games before Messler coached four games. You could argue it became a major program about 20 years later, but notability is not inherited. WP:LOOKSGOOD is a poor argument as well. Eagles 24/7 (C) 16:06, 7 February 2020 (UTC)
- The question under WP:CFBCOACH is whether Centre was a "notable college football program". The 1894 Centre football team passes this test. Although Southern football was in its infancy in the 1890s, Centre was competing at a high level, playing the other major Southern teams of that time period, crushing Kentucky State (i.e. the University of Kentucky) by a 67–0 score and losing a close game to Vanderbilt (probably the most dominant team in early Southern football). Besides that, he passes WP:GNG. Cbl62 (talk) 17:39, 7 February 2020 (UTC)
- WP:CFBCOACH concedes in its own text that many feel it is too lenient of a guideline, so while it may represent consensus within that project, it's certainly not a notability guideline that is backed by site-wide consensus. As Messler doesn't meet WP:NCOLLATH, I think WP:GNG or WP:ANYBIO are the guidelines we're shooting for here, and the Who's Who source in the article is the solitary source I'm seeing that may meet either, if we consider it similar to the Dictionary of National Biography mentioned in WP:ANYBIO #3. Otherwise, it represents a solitary piece of independent, significant coverage about his football career. For me, the question revolves around the weight given to the Who's Who entry. Skeletor3000 (talk) 18:01, 7 February 2020 (UTC)
- Respectfully disagree. This, this, and this each represent significant coverage for purposes of GNG. These were pulled because they were particularly detailed with biographical detail, but other source are out there as well. Cbl62 (talk) 18:11, 7 February 2020 (UTC)
- In addition to the detailed piece in the Pittsburgh paper, the AP and UP both generated obits which were published in newspapers across the country. E.g., this. Cbl62 (talk) 20:06, 7 February 2020 (UTC)
- I agree he wouldn't meet WP:NCOLLATH as a player but as a coach of a major college program at the time he does meet the GNG as Cbl62 (talk · contribs) and several others have pointed out. Also, the original argument for deletion is flawed because he does meet notability per point 1 of WP:NGRIDIRON. "American football/Canadian football players and head coaches are presumed notable if they 1) Have appeared in at least one regular season or post-season game in any one of the following professional leagues: the Arena Football League, the Canadian Football League, the National Football League, the fourth American Football League, the All-America Football Conference, the United States Football League, or any other top-level professional league." The team and league he played/coached at the professional level in the pre-NFL era was a (the) top-level pro league of the turn of the century era and along with the argument made earlier that Centre College was a major collegiate team of in the late 1800s, notability is WP:NOTTEMPORARY. If the KC Cheifs fold and Ohio State drops to D3, the current players and coaches of those teams wouldn't lose notability in Wikipedia 2120.--Bhockey10 (talk) 20:24, 7 February 2020 (UTC)
- College football is not a professional sport, there is no reason to consider it a "top-level professional league". You could argue that the Duquesne Country and Athletic Club meets this criteria, but it was a member of the Western Pennsylvania Professional Football Circuit, and that was a regional league and not a national league. Being a coach of a major college program itself does not automatically pass GNG or even NCOLLATH. Eagles 24/7 (C) 20:44, 7 February 2020 (UTC)
- I think you misread my point, College football is outside of the WP:NGRIDIRON. Being a major college HC, he does seem to satisfy that GNG as Cbl62 and others pointed out, among other side qualifies on that alone. But even if his college time is debatable, he meets WP:NGRIDIRON alone. In the late 1800s early 1900s all the football leagues were "regional" (even the early NFL development was regional). Footprint of teams is not a part of WP:NGRIDIRON, it relies on GNG and competitive level and the Western PA League was the top pro league of the time period. Even in its decline, teams from the league played exhibitions against the early NFL teams. The Duquesne Country and Athletic Club was the league's top team during his time with the team as a player and coach and cited in the Western Pennsylvania Professional Football Circuit article, "the league's winner of the circuit was usually able to lay claim to a national, but professional, football title from 1890-1903.[3]"--Bhockey10 (talk) 20:59, 7 February 2020 (UTC)
- The Western Pennsylvania Professional Football Circuit article also states "The football clubs of the 1880s and 1890s were amateur teams" and I'm having a hard time finding evidence that Duquesne was fully professional when Messler coached the club. I agree with SportingFlyer that the references added to this article are not convincing enough yet that Messler passes GNG. Eagles 24/7 (C) 21:17, 7 February 2020 (UTC)
- That paragraph essentially describes the associations transition from amateur to semi-pro to pro. "Originally amateur, professionalism was introduced to the circuit in 1892;" Eugene Messler played for Duquesne 1895–1897 during the period the league's winners "the winner of the circuit was usually able to lay claim to a national, but professional, football title from 1890-1903.[3] One of the many citations in the article, from the Pro Football Hall of Fame considers pro to have initiated in 1892 Here. Also the Duquesne joined several seasons after the professionalism began and cited in it's article began "after four games...they began hiring stars and soon became the most professional team in the city.[3]" By all accounts, as cited in it's articles, The team was a professional team and the Western PA league was the top pro league of that time. Both fully qualify per the WP:NGRIDIRON and per WP:NOTTEMPORARY. --Bhockey10 (talk) 22:06, 7 February 2020 (UTC)
- Professionalism may have initiated in 1892, but that only means at least one player on the team was being paid. In the Western Pennsylvania Professional Football Circuit article, it says that the 1896 Allegheny Athletic Association team was the "first fully professional football team". There is also a claim in History of American football that "In 1897, the Latrobe Athletic Association paid all of its players for the whole season, becoming the first fully professional football team." When did Duquesne become fully professional? Eagles 24/7 (C) 22:25, 7 February 2020 (UTC)
- Whether or not a team’s roster is 100% paid is not a qualification per WP:NGRIDIRON. Only that the individual played and/or coached in the notable leagues listed and/or "top pro league" of an era. I think you’re looking at this from a 2020s perspective but in the 1890s and early 1900s, pro sports were brand new. If any major pro sports team (MLB, NFL, NHL) was organized today like they were in the 1800s/early 1900s, by today’s standards almost all would be considered semi-pro. Even into the mid-1900s, many of the major pro league's athletes had other off-season jobs- Today that would be equal to a semi-pro standard.Bhockey10 (talk) 23:55, 7 February 2020 (UTC)
- Arguing over SNG is irrelevant considering he does not yet meet WP:GNG (per the source analysis above.) As someone skeptical of obituaries as notability-qualifying sources, I still think we're probably two sources away at the moment. SportingFlyer T·C 02:28, 8 February 2020 (UTC)
- There is absolutely no valid basis for discounting an editorially-independent obituary with in-depth coverage of a person's life. Death notices should be discounted but not this. Cbl62 (talk) 08:14, 8 February 2020 (UTC)
- Everyone dies; his death was reported at length in Pittsburgh (his hometown) and in Dayton, Ohio, and there was a one-sentence blurb in Tampa. Whether obits are okay for notability has been a matter of debate in the past, but what is clear is that people who get long-form obits probably are notable for reasons other than dying. That's why I haven't gone all-out delete, but I'm surprised there's not more on him, especially his coaching career (only a brief blurb in the Kentucky paper.) SportingFlyer T·C 09:13, 8 February 2020 (UTC)
- It appears we have been focusing too much on his football career when he is probably more notable as a steel company manager and soldier. I'm surprised that I can't find much on his coaching the Duquesne Athletic Club, but that's probably because it was more of a side hustle while he worked at Carnegie Steel. He appears to have had some prominence in the industry and became friends with the most famous general during WWI. I have added several sources so his notability should not be in doubt. There are probably several more news sources, but I can't access Newspapers.com. ~EDDY (talk/contribs)~ 15:43, 8 February 2020 (UTC)
- Everyone dies; his death was reported at length in Pittsburgh (his hometown) and in Dayton, Ohio, and there was a one-sentence blurb in Tampa. Whether obits are okay for notability has been a matter of debate in the past, but what is clear is that people who get long-form obits probably are notable for reasons other than dying. That's why I haven't gone all-out delete, but I'm surprised there's not more on him, especially his coaching career (only a brief blurb in the Kentucky paper.) SportingFlyer T·C 09:13, 8 February 2020 (UTC)
- There is absolutely no valid basis for discounting an editorially-independent obituary with in-depth coverage of a person's life. Death notices should be discounted but not this. Cbl62 (talk) 08:14, 8 February 2020 (UTC)
- Arguing over SNG is irrelevant considering he does not yet meet WP:GNG (per the source analysis above.) As someone skeptical of obituaries as notability-qualifying sources, I still think we're probably two sources away at the moment. SportingFlyer T·C 02:28, 8 February 2020 (UTC)
- Whether or not a team’s roster is 100% paid is not a qualification per WP:NGRIDIRON. Only that the individual played and/or coached in the notable leagues listed and/or "top pro league" of an era. I think you’re looking at this from a 2020s perspective but in the 1890s and early 1900s, pro sports were brand new. If any major pro sports team (MLB, NFL, NHL) was organized today like they were in the 1800s/early 1900s, by today’s standards almost all would be considered semi-pro. Even into the mid-1900s, many of the major pro league's athletes had other off-season jobs- Today that would be equal to a semi-pro standard.Bhockey10 (talk) 23:55, 7 February 2020 (UTC)
- Professionalism may have initiated in 1892, but that only means at least one player on the team was being paid. In the Western Pennsylvania Professional Football Circuit article, it says that the 1896 Allegheny Athletic Association team was the "first fully professional football team". There is also a claim in History of American football that "In 1897, the Latrobe Athletic Association paid all of its players for the whole season, becoming the first fully professional football team." When did Duquesne become fully professional? Eagles 24/7 (C) 22:25, 7 February 2020 (UTC)
- That paragraph essentially describes the associations transition from amateur to semi-pro to pro. "Originally amateur, professionalism was introduced to the circuit in 1892;" Eugene Messler played for Duquesne 1895–1897 during the period the league's winners "the winner of the circuit was usually able to lay claim to a national, but professional, football title from 1890-1903.[3] One of the many citations in the article, from the Pro Football Hall of Fame considers pro to have initiated in 1892 Here. Also the Duquesne joined several seasons after the professionalism began and cited in it's article began "after four games...they began hiring stars and soon became the most professional team in the city.[3]" By all accounts, as cited in it's articles, The team was a professional team and the Western PA league was the top pro league of that time. Both fully qualify per the WP:NGRIDIRON and per WP:NOTTEMPORARY. --Bhockey10 (talk) 22:06, 7 February 2020 (UTC)
- The Western Pennsylvania Professional Football Circuit article also states "The football clubs of the 1880s and 1890s were amateur teams" and I'm having a hard time finding evidence that Duquesne was fully professional when Messler coached the club. I agree with SportingFlyer that the references added to this article are not convincing enough yet that Messler passes GNG. Eagles 24/7 (C) 21:17, 7 February 2020 (UTC)
- I think you misread my point, College football is outside of the WP:NGRIDIRON. Being a major college HC, he does seem to satisfy that GNG as Cbl62 and others pointed out, among other side qualifies on that alone. But even if his college time is debatable, he meets WP:NGRIDIRON alone. In the late 1800s early 1900s all the football leagues were "regional" (even the early NFL development was regional). Footprint of teams is not a part of WP:NGRIDIRON, it relies on GNG and competitive level and the Western PA League was the top pro league of the time period. Even in its decline, teams from the league played exhibitions against the early NFL teams. The Duquesne Country and Athletic Club was the league's top team during his time with the team as a player and coach and cited in the Western Pennsylvania Professional Football Circuit article, "the league's winner of the circuit was usually able to lay claim to a national, but professional, football title from 1890-1903.[3]"--Bhockey10 (talk) 20:59, 7 February 2020 (UTC)
- College football is not a professional sport, there is no reason to consider it a "top-level professional league". You could argue that the Duquesne Country and Athletic Club meets this criteria, but it was a member of the Western Pennsylvania Professional Football Circuit, and that was a regional league and not a national league. Being a coach of a major college program itself does not automatically pass GNG or even NCOLLATH. Eagles 24/7 (C) 20:44, 7 February 2020 (UTC)
- Respectfully disagree. This, this, and this each represent significant coverage for purposes of GNG. These were pulled because they were particularly detailed with biographical detail, but other source are out there as well. Cbl62 (talk) 18:11, 7 February 2020 (UTC)
- WP:CFBCOACH concedes in its own text that many feel it is too lenient of a guideline, so while it may represent consensus within that project, it's certainly not a notability guideline that is backed by site-wide consensus. As Messler doesn't meet WP:NCOLLATH, I think WP:GNG or WP:ANYBIO are the guidelines we're shooting for here, and the Who's Who source in the article is the solitary source I'm seeing that may meet either, if we consider it similar to the Dictionary of National Biography mentioned in WP:ANYBIO #3. Otherwise, it represents a solitary piece of independent, significant coverage about his football career. For me, the question revolves around the weight given to the Who's Who entry. Skeletor3000 (talk) 18:01, 7 February 2020 (UTC)
- The question under WP:CFBCOACH is whether Centre was a "notable college football program". The 1894 Centre football team passes this test. Although Southern football was in its infancy in the 1890s, Centre was competing at a high level, playing the other major Southern teams of that time period, crushing Kentucky State (i.e. the University of Kentucky) by a 67–0 score and losing a close game to Vanderbilt (probably the most dominant team in early Southern football). Besides that, he passes WP:GNG. Cbl62 (talk) 17:39, 7 February 2020 (UTC)
- Keep per the sources Editorofthewiki found - has only marginal notability on football grounds but was a wealthy industrialist (but a wealthy industrialist who, based on his opinion pieces to the Pittsburgh newspaper, was on the wrong side of the New Deal.) SportingFlyer T·C 10:36, 9 February 2020 (UTC)
- Keep - now clearly meets GNG. Rlendog (talk) 15:17, 11 February 2020 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.