Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Emblem of Jerusalem

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was merge to Jerusalem Municipality. This closure is moot after an editor already brought over content from this article to Jerusalem Municipality during the AFD discussion. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 22:09, 24 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Emblem of Jerusalem

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There are little to no sources standing up either the basic subject here or the specific phraseology of "emblem of Jerusalem", which appears in a range of scholarly sources to describe other things, but not this winning graphic from a design competition. Of the two sources provided, one is dead and one has no page number or extract. Notability is not clearly established for this graphic as a subject in its own right. Iskandar323 (talk) 06:41, 26 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Israel and Palestine. Iskandar323 (talk) 06:41, 26 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Merge Into Flag of Jerusalem. I don't think this deserves a standalone article as per WP:NOTINHERITED. GoldMiner24 ^Talk 08:28, 26 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@GoldMiner24: NB: The emblem seems to have preceded the flag as a design (no confirming sources on the flag article either). The main problem here is that we simply have no sources with which to establish encyclopedic notability or clarify basic details about either putative subject in question. Iskandar323 (talk) 07:18, 27 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
If merging into the flag doesn't make sense, I do believe that the emblem on its own fails WP:GNG. Deleting also makes sense to me. GoldMiner24 ^Talk 17:59, 27 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Merge to the flag of Jersualem seems like a good alternative to me too. Fad Ariff (talk) 13:05, 26 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Agreed. Problem is, there doesn't seem to be any page for the flag of Jerusalem. Also if you look at the Wiki Page for Jerusalem, there is no emblem or flag displayed as there usually are for most others. PearBullet (talk) 17:55, 11 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
~~Delete~~ ~~Keep~~ Merge to Jerusalem Municipality. I have fixed the dead link with an archive link and supplied another link from Eliyahu Koren page but the problem is neither of these links speak about any design competition, they simply say that the "seal" (is this something else altogether?) was designed by him. Therefore both sentences about the design contest and presentation by him are effectively unsourced (unless it says something in the People of the Book source that I have no access to).17:56, 28 September 2022 (UTC)

EDIT: I have obtained the People of the Book + translation https://yaronimus.files.wordpress.com/2014/01/israel_biliophiles_no6.pdf Hard to read will comment later.Selfstudier (talk) 18:10, 28 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

EDIT OK, I have written up what that source says on the article talk page, it doesn't match the article text but taken together with the other two sources, it seems reasonable to suppose that the municipality symbol is Koren's (having won a competition arranged by himself :) so I change my vote to keep.Selfstudier (talk) 18:46, 28 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

EDIT Sigh. Reflecting again, I don't think this is really worth an article, so change !vote once more to Merge. Selfstudier (talk) 11:10, 29 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Flag_of_Jerusalem#Flag_of_Jerusalem

Keep. Very similar to the emblem entry. Impulsive people, who lack any stress and live in a world where only education, or indoctrination, matters -- rather than reality or state of public opinion in countries that read English Wikipedia -- think they can change reality by re-writing history and deleting pages. Won't help IMO. Truth usually wins.Archway (talk) 16:32, 2 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I don't understand this response. First, this is the emblem entry. Second, are only editors who are stressed, uneducated, not impulsive and not indoctrinated able to !vote?? Third, what has reality to do with this? I agree that WP:TRUTH matters. As does notability. Selfstudier (talk) 21:34, 2 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Delete - fails WP:N, and that doesnt mean it cant be covered elsewhere, but doesnt need an article. nableezy - 16:52, 2 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Keep. Exists in like fourteen different Wikipedias. Hanging all over the city of Jerusalem. Lots of sources in Hebrew available. ---Lilach5 (לילך5) discuss 20:34, 2 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
What's the best sources you have for this in Hebrew? There are just three weak sources in the Hebrew Wikipedia version. Iskandar323 (talk) 05:11, 3 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: Relisting. Just a note to those advocating a Merge to Flag of Jerusalem, that article is also up for AFD discussion so is not a promising Merge target if it gets deleted.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 06:34, 3 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Keep. Regular city emblem with plenty of sources. No case for deletion was made. gidonb (talk) 13:38, 3 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Gidonb: Where are you counting this "plenty of sources"? What's the best example of a source with non-trivial coverage? Iskandar323 (talk) 14:53, 3 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Sources are listed on Hewiki. This article should never have been nominated. gidonb (talk) 15:05, 3 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Sources on some other wiki are no use, bring here + translation the sources you wish to be considered. When this was nominated there were literally no source and no-one looking for any till I looked myself, so the nomination was fine. There is still a notability problem. Selfstudier (talk) 15:11, 3 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

It's not how nominations should work. gidonb (talk) 01:24, 4 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Delete - nothing significant about it. Fails both WP:N and WP:GNG. Haueirlan (talk) 14:59, 3 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Delete per nableezy. starship .paint (exalt) 02:43, 4 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Keep, Haaretz has coverage as does this 28 page booklet by historians Olive branches, stones and a rampant lion : the design process of Jerusalem's municipal emblem.. PrisonerB (talk) 11:03, 6 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Lo and Behold, Visual Aspects of Zionist Myths in Israeli Culture, a book by Dr. Alec Mishory, also has a chapter, pages 223 to 239. PrisonerB (talk) 11:17, 6 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The second one is just an exhibition catalogue. The first one directly contradicts the three sources we have in the article that give credit to Eliyahu Koren and instead gives credit to a group of which he was a member and in particular to another member of that group. So which source is right, the People of the Book (+2 books) or Haaretz? I don't think this confusion really helps the keep case tbh. I have no access to the third one and it's in Hebrew, what does it say? Selfstudier (talk) 11:21, 6 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Olive branches, stones and a rampant lion : the design process of Jerusalem's municipal emblem. is a 20 page catalog of an exhibit, curated by historians, dedicated to the symbol. The Lo and Behold, Visual Aspects of Zionist Myths in Israeli Culture book has a whole chapter on the symbol. That there is a possible disagreement over authorship between members of the submitting group is not a factor detracting from the significance of the symbol. These are three significant sources. PrisonerB (talk) 11:29, 6 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
If there is a dispute over authorship how do we know which source is significant? If you replace three current sources with three new ones we are no further ahead, we just give credit to someone else. And these new sources also need to be properly cited in the article with any necessary translations. Anyone looking at the title of the third source might easily conclude the emblem is a "Zionist Myth in Israeli Culture"?? Selfstudier (talk) 11:35, 6 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Do you have access to either of those sources and do they say who designed it? So far the story seems to be Koren designed it in a competition that he set the rules for, and then when everyone else failed to follow those rules, his design won by default. Is that still the jist in the above? Iskandar323 (talk) 11:41, 6 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
A catchy title is not an indication of content. If you feel like translating the source, go ahead. The nomination was clearly flawed, as I located these sources by looking at other Wikipedia pages and some searching in less than two minutes. PrisonerB (talk) 11:47, 6 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The Haaretz piece speaks more to an article on Ali Gross - for the emblem itself it's a trivial mention and a confusing one. Iskandar323 (talk) 11:31, 6 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The Haaretz piece has several paragraphs on the symbol, leading off with it and covering it later too. Nothing confusing in it. PrisonerB (talk) 11:36, 6 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I mention the confusion over the designer: here possibly Koren, or a whole bunch of designers, or maybe Ali Gross. Iskandar323 (talk) 11:42, 6 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Haaretz points out this was a group design, but says that Gross' private archives suggest she was the main designer. I don't see a confusion. PrisonerB (talk) 11:47, 6 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
This is a waste of time, no evidence provided. Providing a source that one has not read is not providing a source at all. And if one has read it then it should not be a problem to provide a translation or to properly cite it in the article. Selfstudier (talk) 12:02, 6 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Book, author, page numbers, section, and chapter. Full citation in this discussion. If you can't bring yourself to check it out from the library, the this review of the book on page 137 verifies that it contains a chapter in section three on the symbol of Jerusalem. PrisonerB (talk) 12:23, 6 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Comment. This is AfD is already open for a while but all this while no case has been made for either deletion or for merge.

The case for deletion does not address the existence of sufficient sources for WP:GNG, and a lot more prose in the high-quality Hewiki. There is much more to write on this subject and there are sufficient WP:SIGCOV sources to back this up. The delete case is based on WP:IDONTLIKEIT and WP:JUSTAVOTE and does not deal with the evidence.

The case for merging is also extremely weak. It is not evidence-based either. The suggestion of one such opinion is to merge the article into the flag of Jerusalem but the amount that can be written about the flag is finite as it is the emblem with two blue banners, taken from the flag. If something must be merged, it would make sense to do this the other way around: from the flag to the emblem. Thoese !votes too seem to be based in WP:IDONTLIKEIT. gidonb (talk) 03:03, 10 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: Relisting another week, too many different options are still being considered to draw this to a close yet.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 08:59, 10 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Comment If one looks at the article for the Jerusalem Municipality the modern material (post creation of Israel) is completely unsourced and the article almost a deletion candidate itself as it stands. This "emblem" is something that could easily be mentioned there as a start on improving it. If the "parent" article is virtually not notable, then why should this subsidiary icon of it be notable? The supporters here are making no effort to improve the article, alleging that there are (contradictory) Hebrew sources that they are unable to quote and now accusing deleters of "Idontlikeit" because there are no good arguments for keeping it. Selfstudier (talk) 09:27, 10 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not even sure where this page's current title came from, as it is unsupported by the sources present - both of which call it "the seal of the city of Jerusalem" - a title incidentally closer to the Hebrew title. The phrase "emblem of Jerusalem" appears in scholarship, but usually as a metaphor for things. Iskandar323 (talk) 09:51, 10 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Then why not ask a question on the talk page? You AfD tons of articles, where ample sources exist, totally baseless nominations, and this takes away precious time that editors could have spent in the article space to tons of discussions where the outcome is known from the get-go. A huge waste for our community project! gidonb (talk) 13:07, 10 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

More evidence free assertions. Why not spend time yourself in "in the article space" instead of criticizing other editors here. Selfstudier (talk) 13:53, 10 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Oh for the love of anything you hold holy stop babbling and if you have sources provide them. Not make some bogus claim that they obviously must exist. nableezy - 13:55, 10 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Sources were provided above. Nobody even has the beginning of an answer to them. This is a classic uninformed WP:IDONTLIKEIT nomination (and support), which the nominator spouts at high speed. gidonb (talk) 14:01, 10 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The answer is that in the opinion of others they are not sufficient to support a standalone article. Kindly stop commenting on any editor or their motivations as it is both a violation of WP:NPA and a non-sequitur in a deletion nomination. If you refuse to do so Ill be asking that you be made to do so, by either block or topic ban. nableezy - 14:04, 10 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

You can try to make people shut up but it doesn't take the problem away! Nor does it remove the existence of sufficient sources by WP:NEXIST. gidonb (talk) 14:07, 10 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

You are free to make that argument without the personal attacks. You are not free to make it with them. Im done responding here tho, toodles, nableezy - 14:11, 10 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Keep it seems that deletion has been proposed to remove unpalatable facts rather than build an encyclopedia. W C M_email 14:15, 10 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Merge and redirect to Jerusalem Municipality. Fails WP:SIGCOV. The sourcing provided here is all very thin, and the language doesn't necessarily match the title of this article with some sources using symbol of Jerusalem, seal of Jerusalem, flag, etc. Ultimately, there is not enough here to pass GNG. Further, there is no reason we can not include this same information in the article on the municipality, so the encyclopedia will not be losing this information by housing it in a different place. Note to closer. Please consider the strength of the arguments in your close, instead of going off a vote count. Many of the keep votes have used emotional arguments or even personal attacks or have made claims without evidence rather than making a policy evidence based argument. Best.4meter4 (talk) 03:36, 17 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
A merge into Jerusalem Municipality would improve that page and be an ok home for this thinly sourced material (as an option). Iskandar323 (talk) 04:59, 17 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Delete - there are no sources which describes it as a graphic. The emblem with some prose can be manually moved and used to illustrate article Jerusalem Municipality per municipality official page, so no redirect should be left behind.--౪ Santa ౪^99° 07:19, 17 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Comment (NB:) For the sake of simplicity, I've copied the material over to Jerusalem Municipality. I agree with the above that a redirect would not be particularly beneficial given that none of the given sources seem to actually use "emblem of Jerusalem" (which has various other scholarly uses) to describe the seal. Iskandar323 (talk) 07:56, 17 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Might be needed for attribution history at this point, and dont think a redirect really matters either. nableezy - 16:30, 17 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Good point. Iskandar323 (talk) 17:33, 17 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: Final relist. Just a note to participants that the relevant content has already been merged to Jerusalem Municipality.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 20:07, 17 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Merge into Eliyahu Koren or Jerusalem Municipality as an section. Since this fails WP:N but citations seems to be verifiable it is better to merge into another article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Pranesh Ravikumar (talk • contribs) 16:20, October 18, 2022 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.