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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was merge to another article. Consensus is that the child is not notable except for her murder, and as such should not be the subject of her own article. The target article for the merger is to be decided on through the editorial process, as there is not yet consensus on which article would be most appropriate. Until that decision has been made, I am redirecting the article to Samir Kuntar.  Sandstein  17:29, 20 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Einat Haran

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Einat Haran (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View log)

Typical case of WP:MEMORIAL and WP:ONEEVENT. Soman (talk) 21:15, 13 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]


Tell me you are joking. The murder of Einat Haran by Samir Kuntar, was covered world wide 30 years ago, and is still on the headlines. It is a matter of fact that WP mentions this brutal murder in several places. It is also a matter of fact that it is considered as the most brutal terror attack in the history of Israel. The motives for suggestion for deletion by Soman is the fact that he felt insulted in the Samir_Kuntar talk page... when he was explained that Samir Kuntar is no Nelson Mandela and smashing of toddlers heads is not considered as a heroic act in civilized nations.. (here he meant that this claim is racism..). Please block this Soman so he gets time to do homework on this issue. On.Elpeleg (talk) 21:27, 13 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Well, I made a start with adding one source from the Samir Kuntar article, but I would rather see more references to back up the notability of this event (which is horrid, don't get me wrong). De728631 (talk) 21:35, 13 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comment; Copying the following passage from WP:ONEEVENT: "If reliable sources only cover the person in the context of a particular event, then a separate biography is unlikely to be warranted. Marginal biographies on people with no independent notability can give undue weight to the events in the context of the individual, create redundancy and additional maintenance overhead, and cause problems for our neutral point of view policy. In such cases, a redirect or merge are usually the better options. Cover the event, not the person." In the case of this article, is there any reputable source that relates to Haran in any other respect than her death? --Soman (talk) 21:41, 13 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
To prevent the confusion or rather vandal attempt by Soman (see talk page on Samir_Kuntar for more of his political activities). It is a matter of fact that the brutal murdering of this 4 years old which made both Samir Kuntar and his "military" operation notable, you can not have an article about Samir, nor about this operation without mentioning the brutal murder of this toddler by a group of well designated terrorists according to all western and civilized states. I pity your attempts to eliminate the evidence of who Einat was and how show was murdered pay your hero, Soman. You went as far as accusing others for being racist when they describe this event as brutal. I think you should think well of this approach of you, it may be a good leading path for progress and self development. Einat's brutal murder is more then one event issue, her killing has been considered as the most brutal terror attack ever been in Israel, her killing and her story of watching her father murdered just both her skull was smashed by the national hero of Lebanon is described again in over 30 years! When it comes to: WP:ONEEVENT You are most welcome to delete his article, he is only notable for the killing of Einat and nothing else, it is a matter of fact!.
Added a "stub" and more links, asked the Israeli Foreign Ministry to transfer Wikipedia both a permission to use the photo as well as more material from the new public file. Soman, I am asking you, please be reasonable, one can not deny the fact that it is the unnatural death of this girl that really made Kuntar such an important person, please play fair an remove this delete request. Now, back to your assumption that I am "racist", as far as I can recall no one ever called me that. And I do not think I am, as stated before, I do NOT accept everything Israel does or did, there are many things I do not like in the current and past Israeli policies, including the occupation, BUT what good does it do to you, the Lebanese or anyone else on earth by attempting to hide this information? What dignity does it serve? Why helping to build a sand tower (hero) for the masses? You know that this action made by Samir's group is considered as the worse and most brutal action ever been in the history of Israel. The revenge of a small baby has not even been created by the Satan. Please remove your delete request. Let this little girl memory speak for itself. Thank you. On.Elpeleg (talk) 19:00, 14 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Try to stay on topic here, as well as keeping the discussion to what Wikipedia is and isn't. You had yourself invoked the WP:ONEEVENT guideline at talk:Samir Kuntar, as well as yourself creating the article Nasser Operation. My question again, is there any biographical information on Haran that cannot be covered in the Nasser Operation or Samir Kuntar articles? If a person is notable solely through one event (in this case, her death), then the policy is that separate biographical articles not be created. What if we were to create an obituary article on every victim of 9/11? Or the Hiroshima bomb? Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of information, its an encyclopedia. --Soman (talk) 19:58, 14 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Some correction. It was not me who created the aritcle Nasser Operation, however I started the discussion of "One person one event and WP policy" here: Talk:Samir_Kuntar. It is the victim age and the brutal way which made this event famous and not the militant who did it nor the operation for itself. If you take a look in: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Death_stubs you will see several other such cases, eg the 3000th American soldier whom died in the war in Iraq. There was no intention to cover all the 3000 victims of that war, nor any intention to make an article for every victim on the Israeli or Palestinian site, however this specific baby killing is considered as the "most brutal terror attack ever in the history of Israel" ( http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1215330965865&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull and Samir Kuntar 10th line ) and that is not because who did it nor the techniques or ideology back the attack, but because the victim was young and because the victim was killed in a brutal way (seeing her father murdered and then having her skull smashed). One can not ignore the fact that Einat Haran name is mentioned in endless media sources and that the event is notable just because of her. So basically the priorities should be: 1.) Einat Haran 2.) Samir Kuntar 3.) Nasser Operation if one wants to reduce the number of articles. This is with regards to: a.) Notability and b.) sequences of events. To be more specific, should the killing of this baby never taken a place in such a brutal way, there would never be any notable Samir Kuntar nor any notable Nasser Operation. On.Elpeleg (talk) 09:24, 15 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
If you go through any major category systematically, you are bound to find articles that wouldn't stand a AfD. That however doesn't determine the outcome of this deletion discussion. I do not agree with your 'priority' listing. Samir Kuntar is a politically notable figure, became a celebrity in the Arab world during the prolonged campaign for his release, and is a notable figure in Lebanon today. Thus a separate biographical article on him is legitimate. You claim that that the killing was notably brutal, but such an argument only reinforces the notability of the Nasser Operation article. You might find that unfair, but this is a process of writing an encyclopedia, not seeking justice. What could establish notability for this article is if you could come up with references of streets, schools, memorial sites, foundations, etc., named after her. --Soman (talk) 09:42, 15 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Lets try to hold to the facts. Samir was 16-17 years old when HE did what he did. And after he did what he did to Einat that he became famous. Nothing more, nothing less, these facts and events chronlogy is well docuMented. Without the killing of Einat, no one would ever know about him. Its Einat that made him famous by being a 4 years old toddler needing to watch her father being murdered and then having her own skull smashed by him. I ask you again, play fair. DO NOT HIDE IMPORTANT INFORMATION FROM THE PUBLIC. Notability can be established in many different ways. I am certain that there are gardens, schools and streets named on her in Israel, and sooner or later it would be added. But even it was not. There is NOT one person in Israel that has not heard about what happened to thsi girl, her case is posted in thousands of sites! Search google on Einat Haran and brutal. See for your self. Search for the worse terrorist attack in Israel and Einat Haran and you will see it your self.

On.Elpeleg (talk) 12:14, 15 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Continuation of my monologue... the irony is that the very same people whom require the deletion of this article (one person) is the very same people whom stated in different locations that Samir Kuntar is notable because he is regarded as national hero in Lebanon. Quite self contradicting. Since if he is regarded as national hero and at the same time (lets say all incidentally and regardless of the fact that he is regarded as a national hero), then there is no need to argue anymore, the poor victim here has been murdered by this "hero", and that is a good enough reason to have an article about her. I assume that person whom argued for the deletion meant only good, and just wanted to leave a good impression about that hero, in a way that would simply disregard the other heroes involved (as victims) in his so to say "heroic" act. I fail to see any ethos or logos arguments for deletion, and with all "respect" one may have for that "hero" (designated as a terrorist in all Western Countries).
  • Summary and last word

1.) The article was first suggested for a speedy delete, because a lack of references-fixed and approved by the person whom suggested that. So speedy delete was removed.

2.) After that, it was added for a delete because WP biographical practice as a reason.

3.) The response for this was that the killer and the victim are both regarded as notable in different geographical locations and in different ways. Einat is regarded as the victim of "the most brutal terror attack in the history of Israel" in Israel, while in Lebanon the killer is regarded as a national hero. And therefore both should have an article and not just have the event itself covered. Thus the "one man, one event" where one may choose to write about the event and not the killer or victim, should not be applied here, both for notability and objective reasons.

4.) Last word from my big mouth.. and before the admins take their decision. One is not intended to write about each and every victim of this war either on the Palestinian side or the Israeli side, but in this specific case, the killer became notable because of the charges he was found guilty for. And having an article about him, without having an article about the very specific victim that made this killer notable is not a good covering of chronological or historian events. It is Einat Haran death and the way it happened that made Samir Kuntar notable and not the other way around, it is her age and what she saw before she was murdered in the most brutal way that made the event being regarded as the most brutal terror attack in the history of Israel. Please let Einat Haran article stay.
On.Elpeleg (talk) 20:12, 17 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

  • Merge and Redirect Merge to Nasser Operation. Event notable but that article is about it. Not the only victim, and not notable outside of the event. Please remember Wikipedia:No personal attacks here, and that it is easier to read a couple of sentences than a lengthy discourse. Jll (talk) 08:52, 18 August 2008 (UTC) [changed from Merge to Merge and Redirect to make it clear that I support Einat Haran being a redirect to merged article Jll (talk) 21:02, 18 August 2008 (UTC)][reply]
  • It is the specific victim it self that made the event and the killer notable and not the other way around. The victim is notable outside the event, if you follow the references you would see that too. Its not the operation it self that is known either (it was actually called Nahariya . The victim "Einat Harat" is well known in Israel. If you merge this, then also merge the killer article, that is if you want to keep WP as an objective place. Again, check the stub link too, you will see the 3000th soldier victim in Iraq article, it is a part of history. And there is also a need to tell about the victim of the very well notable "most brutal terror attack in the history of Israel". What does personal attack got to with that? I assume good faith, however when I see that a user is trying his best to remove all information about the victim in the other articles, I have great difficulty not to see this delete request as nothing but vandalism, and this why I requested blocking that person.
  • Google search: Einat Haran (3020 hits) is more notable then Nasser Operation (1340 672 hits)

Google search gave:
3,020 hits (all relevant) for "Einat Haran" with Safesearch on. (0.25 seconds)
3,690 hits (less then 1500 are relevant) for "Nasser Operation" with Safesearch on. (0.24 seconds)
1,340 hits (all relevant...unless I missed another Nasser, which is very common Arabic name) for "Nasser Operation" -egypt with Safesearch on. (0.25 seconds).
Please note that the second search also includes atleast 2000 hits on totally different and irrelevant operation by Nasser from Egypt.
Once again as shown, Einat Haran is more notable then the event. Please allow article to stay, documenting the victim of "the most brutal terror attack in the history of Israel".

  • Sorry my mistake, Google search: "Nasser Operation" gives only 672 hits:

672 hits for "Nasser Operation" kuntar with Safesearch on. (0.33 seconds)
Now can we start getting serious? Einat Haran is 5 times more notable then the event itself.On.Elpeleg (talk) 13:02, 18 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comment There is no policy of moral fairness in article creation. Soman covered this with his comments on 9/11 and Hiroshima bomb victims. Both the Nasser Operation article and this one are about the same event, hence my merge suggestion. On the basis of Google hits Einat's father is four times "more notable" than Einat - I get 3,000 hits for "Einat Haran" but 13,000 for "Danny Haran" Kuntar (to eliminate any unconnected Danny Harans). But the merged article should not have the name of one of the victims as its title, since it is about the event and not a particular person. Jll (talk) 16:09, 18 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Common sense, these 13,000 hits all mention Einat Peculiar I got only 1,830 hits. For: "Danny Haran" kuntar -daughters -Einat -daughter with Safesearch on. (0.42 seconds) I guess the hits I got are either about another Danny or about the letters and videos by his brother and his mother appealing to stop the release of the killer. Can we start to get serious?On.Elpeleg (talk) 18:14, 18 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment: Why fixing, mixing and tricksing?
    Lets stick to Ethos and logos, the pathos we can leave to those who regard the murderer of the 4 years old baby as a hero. Fact: You suggested to merge Einat Haran with a less notable article for technical reasons, and since now that you see that Einat Haran is more notable than that article, then fine, merge the non notable Nasser Operation article UNDER the notable article about Einat Haran. That is if you were sincere at the first place with the merging idea. 911 issue is not the same thing, it is known to be the worse terror attack in the USA for many reasons. But here the reasons are totally different, there is ONLY one reason why this event here became notable and that is because the main victim, Einat Haran who was forced to watch how her father was executed by the person that Soman considers as a hero. And straight after that was trying to protect her head with her small arms from having her skull smashed by this "hero". It is regarded as the worse and the most brutal terror attack ever been in the history of Israel because the way Einat was victimized (in all the 3000 links above). I found it very irrational and totally pathos that one would promote articles about secondary issues in such a case, because neither Kuntar nor the operation itself would ever be mentioned unless Einat was there, being 4 years old baby and murdered in such away. Again, one can not ignore the chronology and connection between the events in this very specific case and specially when thousands of international media are still talking about the way this girl was murdered in, 30 years after she was murdered. If we are to follow your reasoning we would also need to delete Anna Frank's article, if Soman has not deleted it yet.On.Elpeleg (talk) 18:14, 18 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Former PM Menachem Begin' speech: Watch the funeral here, see how notable it is. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eEYHP6T6q1E&feature=related now listen to what Begin said: "nikmat yeled katan od lo bara ha-satan". Translation: The revenge of a small baby even the Satan himself has not created. Do you start to understand now why this murder of Einat is literally defined by thousands of links as the "most brutal terror attack in the history of Israel".? In some places its also designated as being "the worse terror attack". Never mind that some people see killing babies as heroic, please try being objective. Both the international media and the people in Israel called this terror attack for "the most brutal" and "worse" in the history, while the event for itself is being notable in 1/5 of the links comparing to the main victim of this event. It is about notability and relevance.On.Elpeleg (talk) 18:28, 18 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Merge and redirect. I'm with SheffieldSteel there. The event itself was notable, while the child was only one of a number of victims. Merge the content but keep the redirect, so a name search may succeed. De728631 (talk) 19:24, 18 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I also support keeping Einat Haran as a redirect. I assumed that this would happen as a matter of course with the merge, but to make it clear I have amended my opinion above. Jll (talk) 19:51, 18 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment: Nasser Operation is the wrong target. I don't understand the apparent thrust to disappear this article into Nasser Operation, a two-paragraph Wikipedia backwater. IMO Nasser Operation should itself be a redirect to Samir Kuntar, because that's where all the facts are. Einat Haran should also be merged with and redirected to Samir Kuntar, the same as the Megan Kanka article was merged with and redirected to the article on her murderer, Jesse Timmendequas. --CliffC (talk) 22:00, 18 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Reply to:Jesse Timmendequas Please read: WP:ONEEVENT. Samir Kuntar is a typical case of "one man one event" and I guess that so is Einat Haran, it is a matter of fact that both the victim and the murderer have been very notable in nearly 30 years now. The Nasser Operation for itself as a search term has been much less notable. One could argue that there were "more events" related, eg. the 2nd Lebanon war and others for Samir and diverse appeal from public and family on the case for Einat. However the main event here is the Nahariya Terror Attack (listed in WP as Nasser Operation). If one is to have only one article covering all the events and people related, why would you pick one person and make him "the event". It does not make sense and it may even confuse the readers, if you notice most of the arguments on the Samir Kuntar discussion page was about adding material which does not fit into a biographical article... So the question is: does WP want to limit all this event and its involved, notable people into a one biographical page? On.Elpeleg (talk) 05:29, 19 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Reply: I have never contributed to, or even read before this week, any of the articles being discussed, and I thought a fresh view might be helpful. My problem with the Nasser Operation article is that it's a backwater (definition: "a remote place; somewhere that remains unaffected by new events, progresses, ideas, etc.") that will not be easily found by readers – it currently seems designed more as a dumping ground than as a real article. Let's keep all the facts of the event in one article, Samir Kuntar, this will also solve the problem of keeping several articles synchronized in their description of the event, and centralize argument.
- Just for the record, you are replying to CliffC. Jesse Timmendequas is not allowed to post here, as he is serving life in prison. --CliffC (talk) 13:44, 19 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Hello, I just wanted to comment that in the Hebrew wikipedia they had the same dilemma. Eventually they decided to have two articles: one named "Samir Kuntar"[1] and the other named "1979 Naharia attack" [2].

The logic in this, as has been pointed out by George in [3] is that Samir Kuntar is a man notable of many deeds: (i) he was involved in one incident in Jordan in 1978, where he was captured and served a year in prison (for some reason it is hard to find online material on that), (ii) The murder of the Haran family in 1979 (iii) his release was Hezbollah's stated goal for capturing the two Israeli soldiers and initiating the 2006 Lebanon War (iv) he is notable for the 2008 Israel-Hezbollah prisoner swap (v) He is also notable for the hero's reception in Lebanon, the incident between Israel and Al-Jazeera TV [4] etc.

For this reason I believe that we should follow George and the example given by the Hebrew wikipedia, i,e, that there should be an article on Samir Kuntar and a separate article focusing on the "1979 Naharia attack" or Nasser Operation which will be dedicated to that particular incident, to the Haran family, and to how the murder of the 4 year old child was percieved in Israel.

Another similar example can be found in the two articles devoted to the Coastal Road massacre and its main perpetrator Dalal Mughrabi (whose body was also released in the 2008 Israel-Hezbollah prisoner swap).

Best,

Tkalisky (talk) 07:02, 19 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comment I agree with Tkalisky that there should be a separate Nasser Operation article. Jll (talk) 11:57, 19 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Redirect. Both Nasser Operation and Einat Haran should redirect to Samir Kuntar, since both subjects are notable only for Kuntar's involvement. -- Nudve (talk) 13:06, 19 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comment Once again, since I am the person that started the discussion of "one man, one event.." as well as suggesting to start event and victim page. So please listen. The whole problem started when it was argued that some material can not be added to the Kuntar article, because his article is biographical article... so lets not get back there again, because this is a hopeless discussion. The killing of Einat Haran is designated as shown in the article as "the worst terror attack ever in Israel". It worths a mentioning and description of Einat with her photo, Samir Kuntar article does not fit for it if it is a personal biographical article as argued on its discussion page. So what do we do next? Lets try focusing. Thanks! PS. In Israel Wikipedia they made an article about Haran Family too. In addition to event and Samir articles. On.Elpeleg (talk) 13:34, 19 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
What material are you referring to? All the information concerning the event is already mentioned in the Samir Kuntar article. Also, you are mistaken. In the Hebrew Wikipedia, Haran Family redirects to the event[5]. -- Nudve (talk) 13:46, 19 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The problem with redirecting everything to Samir Kuntar is that the Samir Kuntar article contains a lot of information that is not related to the murder (as user:George pointed and I showed above, Kuntar is known for many things and his long article reflects that). The Kuntar article is inappropriate for adding more info on the Haran family (e.g. the pictures, Danny Haran's background and occupation, funural) or the details of the attack itself (there are more details about the attack, investigation and trial which are too large for the Kuntar article). Therefore I think there should be another article such as "1979 Naharia attack" or "Nasser Operation" devoted to this particular attack as was done in the Hebrew wikipedia and in the english wikipedia for the case of the Coastal Road massacre and its main perpetrator Dalal Mughrabi, each of which recieved an article of its own. This will also enable the listing of this attack in catagories such as Massacres in Israel during the Israeli-Palestinian conflict[6] or some other appropriate list. Thanks for understanding.Tkalisky (talk) 18:27, 19 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I see your point. However, the current Nasser Operation is, as one user called it above, "backwater". There is no substantial information in it that isn't already detailed in Samir Kuntar. I think it's unlikely that anyone will expand it significantly. The Hebrew article isn't much better, BTW. The info on the Haran family (Danny's background, funeral) is, I'm afraid, not noable enough to merit an article. A picture of the family could be inserted to Samir Kuntar. Therefore, I believe one article is enough for now, and that article should be Samir Kuntar, since he is notable for the reasons you mentioned above. -- Nudve (talk) 18:49, 19 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Not relevant merging an WP:ONEEVENT into another WP:ONEEVENT I agree with Tkalisky except that the city name is Nahariya which is by the way 6 km from Lebanese border and not 10 km as stated in Samir's article. Those of you who are for merging into Samir Kuntar, please see the discussion on Samir Kuntar look for: ...As this is the biography of a living person, and not the article on the event itself, their views and statements should be given some prominence. George, 04:11, 11 August 2008 (UTC). I agree with George too and this is why we wanted to start a separated article at the first place. On.Elpeleg (talk) 18:59, 19 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Re: applying WP:ONEEVENT and WP:MEMORIAL to this article: Please note that Einat Haran was four years old when she was murdered. That murder eliminated forever the chance that she would have any additional "events" that would satisfy editors eager to rigidly apply some guidelines. I'm sure she and her family would happily forfeit the honor of ever getting mentioned in an encyclopedia in exchange for her never having had this notability. So let's not be so callous as to compare her with the Joe Blow one hit wonders being debated here. Likewise for WP:MEMORIAL--that guideline is to discourage friends and family to mount memorial articles. The notion that Einat only has notability to friends and family, or that that is who is behind promoting this article is again a bit callous. Boodlesthecat Meow? 19:53, 19 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • Comment, I disagree with that interpretation of WP:MEMORIAL. Its true that the text at WP:MEMORIAL says 'departed friends and relatives', but that doesn't mean the logic disappears if it is applied in a broader sense. The basic essence of WP:MEMORIAL imho is that articles should be encyclopediatic, not obituaries. The notion that inclusion in Wikipedia is an issue of 'justice' or 'recognition' is a misunderstanding. No-one disputes that this event is an extreme human tragedy, but that doesn't mean that the guidelines of wikipedia are to be thrown out of the window. --Soman (talk) 20:02, 19 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]


I agree that the Nasser operation is poor right now. But there is more information which I did not yet have time to insert. For example, Kuntar tried to kidnap another father and girl but they escaped when the corridor lights turned off (an otherwise annoying trait of Israeli apartment buildings ...). Also, there was a man who shot at Kuntar's group when they tried to enter his apartment and kidnap him. Also, at the trial, Smadar Haran was ordered to leave the courtroom for offending Samir Kuntar etc., PM Begin's speach at the funural. Also, it is important to state Danny Haran's profession, as some people today claim he was a nuclear scientists (Huh ?) [7] Anyway. Lots of stuff that is too detailed to insert into Samir Kuntar. Also, we need to include this incident in the listings of "Terror incidents" etc. and Samir Kuntar is not a good article for that (take the example of Coastal Road massacre and its main perpetrator Dalal Mughrabi). For this reason I think we need both Samir Kuntar and Nasser Operation. Best, Tkalisky (talk) 21:37, 19 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

  • Misconception:"extreme human tragedy" Einat Haran is not just a personal "extreme human tragedy" as stated above, it is well documented with references that it is a "public tragedy", but most important, it is documented also that this tragedy is designated and qualified in endless links and references (thousands!) as being the worse of its kind "in the history of Israel". Thereby there is a need for an article.On.Elpeleg (talk) 05:54, 20 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • An apology and thanks to Soman
Soman, Thanks for the help and sorry for all the misunderstanding (will strike them above).On.Elpeleg (talk) 11:08, 20 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]


The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
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