Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Egyptian Revolution of 2013

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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus. There does not seem to be a strong consensus one way or the other. However, this discussion contains a lot of good advice on how to improve the article, remove content that is already present in other articles, and possibly avoid deletion in the future. It seems clear that more high-level discussion needs to take place to determine how to best document this period in Egyptian history (RoySmith's comments towards the bottom seem quite reasonable to me). This article is relatively young, and therefore I think it will benefit from a bit more time to work on it. I would encourage the active editors of this article to re-read this discussion and try to address some of the issues that were brought up. If, in a few weeks time, the article still suffers from intractable problems, then renominate it for deletion and see if a stronger consensus develops. ‑Scottywong| gab _ 15:15, 28 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Egyptian Revolution of 2013[edit]

AfDs for this article:
Egyptian Revolution of 2013 (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log · Stats)
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Probable WP:FORK of article 2013 Egyptian coup d'état GreyShark (dibra) 19:06, 17 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

  • Keep - This article is not a WP:FORK. It discusses different events that preceded the coup d'état. It is also still under construction. Fitzcarmalan (talk) 19:12, 17 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • @User:Tocino - The protests article is just a timeline of different events and this uprising is a milestone that concluded the seven months' protests, it's not something that used to occur on a regular basis during the events from November 2012 to June 2013 as the numbers, reactions, characteristics..etc. Please check back into the article and you will notice it is different and that it's also under development. Fitzcarmalan (talk) 13:13, 22 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
In that case work on makin the "timeline" article encylopaedic with prose.
Also if it is under construction that work on it in ones sandbox. Lihaas (talk) 15:05, 26 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Well, 80% of the article is completed now, so it might be too late for a sandbox. Fitzcarmalan (talk) 01:47, 27 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete or Rename and Revise.,per the reason i have mentioned on the talk pages of the coup and the talkpage of this article.Alhanuty (talk) 19:28, 17 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I think it needs to be deleted.Alhanuty (talk) 18:14, 20 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

  • Deletion of this article is not necessary: it shows the events between the 2012-13 Egyptian protests and the 2013 Egyptian coup. Remember, Wikipedia is an encyclopedic organization, and it is where millions of users come every day to find information. If you want, you can send me a message on my talk page to edit the article, even from scratch if possible. Thanks, Babestress. --Babestress (talk) 19:39, 17 February 2014 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ibrahim.ID (talk • contribs) [reply]
  • Rename the original name is June 2013 Egyptians events that is neutral name, the word of Revolution named by Egyptian media that controlled by the members of Coup d'état. Fitzcarmalan move the page individually without consensus Ibrahim.ID »» 20:22, 17 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • The article was created over a redirect page called "Egyptian Revolution of 2013" and it was done by User:Amrtarek not me. However, it was agreed on by different users in Talk:2013 Egyptian coup d'état. So, like i stated below, take this discussion to the revolution talk page not here. Fitzcarmalan (talk) 20:51, 17 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep The article is explaining well what happend but lacks the main thing namely the coup itself. It looks to me like the article is not finnished and I dont see the reasson why delete it now untill it is. Just writing about the coup without mentioning what happend before is no good. As I can see there is already prepared parts like coup, arrests and so on to finnish the article. I say keep for a bit more and give somebody a chance to finnish it.Stepojevac (talk) 20:10, 17 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • The article contains alots of fork content,it needs to be renamed and revised to explain what happened,so I think it would be better to rename and revise,that keeping on it fork status as it is now.Alhanuty (talk) 20:23, 17 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • The discussion about renaming it is off-topic here. It is already being discussed in the article's talk page so there is no need to open this topic everywhere. Fitzcarmalan (talk) 20:45, 17 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

No there is a need to show that this article is a fork and either need reconstuction and name these event as demostrations and bloody event or,then the article is to be deleted,the editors need to know that they being asked for,because some editors might try to misfortune the other editor that the article is perfect.Alhanuty (talk) 21:48, 17 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

  • Please do not move the page without consensus again. Fitzcarmalan (talk) 13:37, 18 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete I will recommend the deletion of this article. User:Usaeedi (talk), 18 February 2014 (UTC)

But the article still needs to be revised.Alhanuty (talk) 23:44, 18 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

  • @User:Alhanuty - Why don't you revise the article yourself and see if there is anything unneutral like you keep saying? You can let me know about the issues and we can discuss this and the naming dispute in the article's talk page instead of moving your arguments to different locations all the time because this behavior will never change what was said before. That way you will have the opportunity to make something constructive rather than denouncing every effort that has been done so far. Fitzcarmalan (talk) 04:14, 20 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Merge with 2013 Egyptian coup d'état. No one denies that there were massive protests in favor of Morsi's removal, and this fact should be sufficiently covered in the background section of the coup d'état article. But having two articles about the same event, one dealing mostly with the days leading up to Sisi pulling the trigger and one about the days following, is a classic WP:FORK case. It's also been established that very few sources outside of Egyptian state media refer to the events of the summer as a "revolution", and the coup d'état article is currently in a much better state than this one, thus this article is the one that should be merged, not the other way around. At the very least it should be renamed, to remove the blatent WP:FORK aspects. --Tocino 03:06, 19 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • @User:Tocino - This could not possibly be a WP:FORK as they are not the same event. I don't know what is it that you mean by "one about the days following" because this is the article dealing with the days that followed the coup. This is the article dealing with the coup (Sisi pulling the trigger). And this is the article dealing with the 4 days that directly preceded the coup (the days leading up to Sisi pulling the trigger) as this one differs from the coup article by dealing specifically with the protests that took place between June 30 and July 3. In addition, if Sisi was working behind the curtains while the events were ongoing or if he was preparing for the coup days or even months prior to the eventual move is a different case that should be described in detail in the coup article with a short notice about it in the revolution article (which is the case now in the revolution page, but not the case in the coup page). So i believe the coup d'état article is the one missing essential details about its subject in this case. This one is still under construction and there wouldn't be extra unnecessary info about events surrounding the coup.
Also, if this article is to be merged in the coup's background section, it would make the latter too long to navigate comfortably as there are many sections that would be opened up in this one (e.g. "Characteristics" section with possible sub-sections about sexual harassment or anti-American sentiment during the protests). And we might be eventually forced to split per WP:SIZE. In this case that happens, we will be left with one thing, the naming issue, which is being heavily discussed in Talk:Egyptian Revolution of 2013#Unneutral_Naming_and_content where many sources stated call the events "revolution". Regards. Fitzcarmalan (talk) 05:26, 20 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Merge with 2012–13 Egyptian protests or Delete. I recently discovered that there's another article out there that deals with what took place leading up to the coup, it's at 2012–13 Egyptian protests.　This 2012-13 Egyptian protests article deals with the beginning of widespread opposition to Morsi, which occured after he signed his controversial decree in　November 2012, and goes all the way up to the events of July 3.　Why have two massive articles about essentially the same thing? Especially when one is much more encompassing and informative, and has a more neutral title (2012–13 Egyptian protests). --Tocino 06:24, 20 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Same thing → How come those 2 are also the same event? I agree that the protests article encompasses the revolution article, but does that mean they're the same? I don't think so. There were many notable events within the Bahraini uprising and Euromaidan among many others that had articles created specifically for them which is the same in this case. 2012–13 Egyptian protests is in a timeline format so i don't why should we get to merge a notable event like that with a different structure to a timeline article. Again, they are not the same thing since they differ in characteristics, numbers and domestic/international reactions. We can also add to this other points like the protests abroad in solidarity with the June 30–July 3 protests not with the 2012-13 events or the coup. I guess this leaves you with the most important decision, delete. But are there reasons for deletion you would like to point out and discuss apart from the article being incomplete? I also tried explaining that it is not a WP:FORK of either the coup or protests articles so i would like to hear your opinion on this. Fitzcarmalan (talk) 19:15, 20 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I admire your determination to keep this article from being deleted, but by just adding every report of violence or protest in the few days leading up to the coup does not mean that this article is now more worthy of being kept on its own. There are now huge paragraphs in this article of excess detail. --Tocino 23:52, 25 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
@User:Tocino - Trust me, there is no determination here as long as there is a good reason to delete or merge. But i personally don't think there is any reason to delete this from history or even merge an event as notable as this. I agree it might not be as notable or as notorious as the coup which made bigger headlines, but it is still widely seen as one of the biggest protests in Egypt's history, "even larger than those of 2011" and "bigger than anything seen since the Arab Spring uprising" [1] [2] [3] [4] and deserves an article of its own. I also believe it isn't fair to consider this a regular event in the 2012–13 Egyptian protests. I will probably stop arguing about this though, because i feel i will soon be accused by some of POV-pushing and WP:COI, which i assure you isn't the case at all. As for the article itself, i would be grateful if you point out at the issues then i'll be glad to discuss and solve them in the corresponding talk page, because there is a lot more than just reports of violence and i'm still working out to cover the number of protesters in each location. Fitzcarmalan (talk) 02:42, 26 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This debate has been included in the list of Egypt-related deletion discussions. Necrothesp (talk) 14:34, 20 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This debate has been included in the list of History-related deletion discussions. Necrothesp (talk) 14:34, 20 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This debate has been included in the list of Politics-related deletion discussions. Necrothesp (talk) 14:34, 20 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete per WP:FORK. I get the distinct sense this article was created by editors who feel strongly that the ouster of Mohamed Morsi should be described as a "revolution" and not as a "coup", and after failed attempts to change the 2013 Egyptian coup d'état article name, it was created as some sort of "compromise". It's a superfluous page covering events already described in other articles, chiefly the coup article and 2012-13 Egyptian protests. -Kudzu1 (talk) 15:38, 20 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete or merge into 2012–13 Egyptian protests. Also, the title is controversial.--FutureTrillionaire (talk) 18:50, 20 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Alright, let's imagine for a second that the article's name is July 2013 Egyptian demonstrations:
  1. When the creation of this article was proposed here, it was not meant as a "compromise" but as a way of solving a would be never-ending dispute. And it was also not meant to satisfy anyone either, but it should be considered a good step for those who defended the coup article against users who kept irrelevantly calling for it to be named "revolution" for more than 6 months without even bothering to create an article that dealt with the events separate from the coup.
  2. I myself did not object once to the coup d'état name, in fact i think it's the only appropriate name to describe what happened on the night of July 3. But i was certainly opposed to the editors who wanted the coup article be named "revolution" and i'm not responsible if some users had different motivations when the creation of "July 2013 Egyptian demonstrations" was proposed. I also believe it is unfair to denounce this article as a whole by certain users who want everything that happened since June 30 to be called a coup as if the mass protests that preceded Sisi's move were something regular like the events of 2012–13 Egyptian protests.
  3. As for the title, i would be glad to discuss the controversy about it in its corresponding talk page so i will not defend it here. Fitzcarmalan (talk) 19:15, 20 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Fitzcarmalan (talk); if that is your rational now, then based on what you mention above the article should be a sub-section inside "Coup d'etat" article and such sub-section could be named as "Events Timeline". You are heavily defending and arguing with everyone who propose deletion (I do not mean any personal thing here, i am just describing the behavior i see), I agree about the deletion of "Egyptian Revolution of 2013" article from the Wikipedia or creating a sub-section in "Coup d'etat" Article named "Events Timeline". what happened from 30 June to 3 July 2014 was not a revolution by all means and definitions. --Hans Franssen (talk) 19:55, 22 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I am defending it because the event is too notable to be deleted or merged with another article and i'm trying to prove that it's not a WP:FORK. The article's naming dispute does not concern me in this particular discussion to be honest. So please go to Talk:Egyptian Revolution of 2013 and define "revolution" for me, then i'll probably give you my argument for the 100th time. Fitzcarmalan (talk) 20:09, 22 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • @User:FutureTrillionaire - I would like to see your argument not just a vote. Because i recall inviting you to join the discussion where the creation of this article was being proposed a while before it was created, but you apparently showed disinterest. Regards. Fitzcarmalan (talk) 19:30, 21 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep, it's important to have article detailing the first days of the events, which is different from the coup. Amr TarekSay Hello!, 11:53, 21 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Update: please note that by deleting this page we will have to move the details mentioned here to the other page which will led to an endless discussion about how to divide the article in two, as well as endless discussions about whether happened was a coup or revolution. Amr TarekSay Hello!, 21:45, 21 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
But changing name. It's a majority. --Panam2014 (talk) 14:49, 21 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This debate has been included in the list of Events-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 16:36, 21 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Keep, these were quite possibly the largest protests in history, they're certainly notable enough to have their own article. Charles Essie (talk) 16:51, 22 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Please see 2012–13 Egyptian protests for the events preceding the coup. --Tocino 23:36, 25 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
But after rename. --Panam2014 (talk) 08:35, 25 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Note: Panam2014 made a move request here. Fitzcarmalan (talk) 13:34, 25 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • DELETE as per GreyShark (dibra. the events starting from 30 June were part of the coup. Without such events, probably the coup would not happen. the article was created without consensus, this is a strange to happen on Wikipedia!!!!!!....... the creator was Egyptian, article created after 6 month of the events. the people who argue to keep it most of them are from Egypt, also sources are not reliable (Apologize if some will take it personal, i do not mean that, I just record my notices).... Thanks Heroasawhole (talk) 22:46, 25 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Delete/merge There was n o consensus on this creation adn it is a POVFORK. It also only partisan sources that call this a revolution. WP cannot create events out of thin air.Lihaas (talk) 15:03, 26 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • None of the above. Certainly 2012–13 Egyptian protests and Egyptian Revolution of 2013 have a lot of overlap, and one way or another should be merged. But to just say merge one into the other isn't really the answer either. What really should happen is go back to Timeline of the 2011–present Egyptian civil unrest, find the most significant watershed events, and use those events as bright-line demarcations between articles. Then write a series of articles, culling material from 2012–13 Egyptian protests, Egyptian Revolution of 2013, etc, which describe the events chronologically. I pity the poor admin who closes this one. What's the over/under on this getting dragged to wp:delrev no matter what gets decided? -- RoySmith (talk) 14:24, 27 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Issues There are multiple issues that need to be solved for this to be kept. From my perspective this is considered a split of 2013 Egyptian coup d'état focusing on the June 30-July 2 protests, the naming of which is debatable but its existence is granted since having an article about the coup itself and how it was done is notable as well as having an article about the protests leading up to it:
  1. A portion of this article was copied from 2013 Egyptian coup d'état which is fine but you need to add the template {{Copied}} in the talk page as well as remove the sections from the coup from there.
  2. The coup article should be solely about the coup. How the military detained morsy, how the state institutions reacted and so on... its aftermath and background are in other articles already.
I think solving these issues should sustain having this article. The naming of the article is irrelevant to the issue of whether we keep it or not (IMHO).--Diaa abdelmoneim (talk) 09:31, 28 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • @Diaa abdelmoneim - The only thing that was copied from the coup article was a few international reactions, which i intended to move as a whole but thought i should wait and see if this one survives deletion first. But you're right, i should have mentioned it was copied from the coup page (I did so but in a different way).
The article was requested to be moved by Panam2014 and you can give your opinion there if you want.
I agree that the coup d'état article is the one missing essential details about how the military was preparing for its move, the steps it had taken, allegations of fueling the protests, its intentions..etc. Fitzcarmalan (talk) 10:07, 28 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
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