Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Ed White Middle School

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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was convert to disambiguation page. As a few editors noted here, articles about middle schools are normally redirected to the school district article. However, there are at least two school districts that have had an "Ed White Middle School", and the consensus here is that this middle school is not the primary topic among such schools. A few editors have suggested deletion, but a good number of participants suggested that they were okay with an alternative to deletion: converting the article to a disambiguation page. This solution allows the history of the article to be kept in case an editor wishes to merge relevant information to the Huntsville City Schools article, but it also recognizes that the middle school is not independently notable. Per Wikipedia:Disambiguation#No primary topic, a disambiguation page with only two topics is a valid construction if there is no primary topic among the two. For these reasons, I see this as the consensus of the discussion. Mz7 (talk) 01:27, 25 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Ed White Middle School[edit]

AfDs for this article:
Ed White Middle School (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log · Stats)
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No evidence of notability. Doesn't appear to be anything extraordinary about this school that could be used as a yardstick for notability (public middle schools are rarely notable). Bneu2013 (talk) 22:10, 9 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Education-related deletion discussions. CAPTAIN RAJU(T) 22:13, 9 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This debate has been included in the list of Schools-related deletion discussions. CAPTAIN RAJU(T) 22:13, 9 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This debate has been included in the list of Alabama-related deletion discussions. CAPTAIN RAJU(T) 22:14, 9 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Make up your mind, Fred! You have mentioned three outcomes: keep, merge and redirect. Which one? Jack N. Stock (talk) 04:49, 10 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep, for the purposes of this discussion, and to preserve the edit history. Merge is a separate process. —C.Fred (talk) 17:43, 14 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete. No more notable than most middle schools. (Also the article is very promotional.) Breaking sticks (talk) 22:15, 9 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Redirect. It's a problem for me that both the Academy for Academics and Arts now occupying the building and the other Ed White Middle School in San Antonio seem more notable than this school. Neither has an article. Otherwise, I'd suggest redirect to one of those two schools. As it is, redirect to Huntsville City Schools. There's nothing egregious, harmful or promotional about this article that requires it be deleted, and redirects are WP:CHEAP. Anything notable about the history of this school can be mentioned briefly in the article for the school district. Jack N. Stock (talk) 04:49, 10 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment (for now) - First, Bneu2013, if you feel an elementary or middle school fails GNG, you can just BOLDly redirect it to the school district rather than take up community time with an AfD. If your redirect is reverted, then bring it to AfD. The lack of notability for this school however, is not as apparent as it usually is for middle schools (it's actually better sourced than many high school articles). I'm not at all sure which way to go here. It's close to a keep, so I'm waiting to see if anyone can pull a WP:HEY off on this. A redirect is a bit problematic due to the school in San Antonio. The target for redirect is also a bit sketchy as an article should be created for the school occupying the building now and that would be the more logical target over the district. I'll revisit this later in the week. John from Idegon (talk) 14:33, 10 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
    • Compared to some of the "this is a high school; there are sports" articles, this should probably be a keep. But, you know, WP:OTHERSTUFF... Jack N. Stock (talk) 17:46, 10 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Redirect, but move to Ed White Middle School (Alabama) prior to redirection to Huntsville City Schools. Altho better than most middle school articles, there still isn't enough to meet GNG, and SCHOOLOUTCOMES applies to how we handle that. See below John from Idegon (talk) 10:21, 12 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Merge / Redirect to Huntsville City Schools per general consensus on elementary and middle schools and this one doesn't appear to merit an exception. Alansohn (talk) 14:59, 12 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete There is not enough sourcing to show notability. School outcomes actually says that high schools generally keep the article, everything below that we delete. So it indicates we should delete this article.John Pack Lambert (talk) 03:10, 13 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
    • Johnpacklambert, as I read WP:SCHOOLOUTCOMES, I see that "Most elementary (primary) and middle schools that don't source a clear claim to notability usually get merged or redirected in AfD. Schools that don't meet the standard typically get merged or redirected to the school district authority that operates them (generally North America) or the lowest level locality (elsewhere or where there is no governing body) rather than being completely removed from the encyclopedia". Do you see a reason for why delete is appropriate here and not a merge / redirect to the article for the parent school district? Alansohn (talk) 05:52, 13 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
      • Redirect is not appropriate because the term refers to many schools and this is in no way a clear primary usage.John Pack Lambert (talk) 00:38, 14 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
        • After deletion, all future visitors to the page (over 100 users per month) would receive an invitation to create a new article, so some prefer redirects to reduce the chance of the article being re-created. People looking for the other Ed White Middle School are already finding something different to what they expect, and I don't see any history of complaints. Jack N. Stock (talk) 01:41, 14 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
          • I don't really understand where you would expect people to file "complaints", but the reason we have redirects is to make our internal search engine as user friendly as possible. This could be fifty percent dealt with by moving and then redirecting the article, as I suggested above. You could even create Ed White Middle School (Texas) as a redirect if so moved. As a matter of fact, I'll just do it for you. John from Idegon (talk) 05:15, 14 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete - I really hate petty bureaucratic bickering, so I'm gonna cut up some red tape. I went ahead and created a redirect at Ed White Middle School (Alabama). A redirect to the undisambiguated name is clearly not appropriate at this time due to two different schools having the same name. Creating a DAB page for two items is discouraged by guidelines. Therefore, effectively, the !votes for redirect are now !votes for delete, as the redirect already exists! I know this is unorthodox, and if I've violated some community standard, let me know and I won't do it again. Be Bold, the man said. Peg + Cat applies. John from Idegon (talk) 05:43, 14 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
    • That is different to a redirect, or to your proposal to move and redirect, as a redirect keeps edit history whereas a delete does not keep the history of the article accessible to most users. Your presumption seems somewhat bureaucratic itself, and is not how we usually reach consensus. Jack N. Stock (talk) 05:49, 14 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
      • An edit history is not needed on a redirect, as there are no visible contributions to attribute. "The way we usually do things" is the very definition of bureaucracy. No one has seriously suggested keeping the article. I suppose making the article a DAB is a possibility, but not a good one as a two items DAB is out of guidelines. Like I said, if you can point me to a community standard I've violated, I won't do it again, but the issue is solved, and the concerns of all present have been addressed. John from Idegon (talk) 06:04, 14 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
        • Let me modify that statement slightly. An edit history is not needed on a redirect decided by community process. It would be needed on a bold redirect in case someone disputes it. And even if a page is deleted, its history is still with it in the deleted pages files accessable by administrators. John from Idegon (talk) 06:22, 14 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
          • "Redirect is a recommendation to keep the article's history but to blank the content and replace it with a redirect. Users who want to see the article's history destroyed should explicitly recommend Delete then Redirect" WP:GD. Also, a redirect means that a user is redirected to another article, whereas delete means a user receives an invitation to create a new article (and thus we go back to square 1). Jack N. Stock (talk) 06:38, 14 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
    • There is an E D White Junior High in Thibodeaux, Louisiana. If we put that at "See also", we've got three targets on a dab page now. —C.Fred (talk) 17:57, 14 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Comment - I should have said this when I nominated, but I do support a merger to Huntsville City Schools. I might should have opened a merger discussion instead. I don't, however, support merging the entire article, maybe shorter descriptions of what's in the article. Bneu2013 (talk) 17:23, 14 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

  • Redirect. To clarify my earlier opinion, this school does not warrant an article. However, the history of this page should be preserved, and there may be some content that can be used at the redirect target, Huntsville City Schools. It sounds like a move/history merge to Ed White Middle School (Alabama) will be needed after we're done for that. At the end of the day, the project is better served having a pointer to a district article(s) than a redlink that invites future articles. —C.Fred (talk) 17:54, 14 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: No one appears to be asking for the article to be kept, but some wish the history to be. Can we achieve a clearer consensus?
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, — Coffee // have a ☕️ // beans // 06:16, 17 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment. Now that an Ed White Middle School (Alabama) redirect has been created, this could be simply changed into a disambiguation page for the three Ed White middle/junior high schools, directing users to each of the three school districts. The history could be moved to Ed White Middle School (Alabama) or kept at Ed White Middle School. I can see arguments for both: the former is more specific, the latter makes the history easier to locate. If we use any content at all, we must keep the editing history as appropriate attribution under WP:CC BY-SA. Some content could be moved to expand Huntsville City Schools in regard to the Academy for Academics and Arts, and the issue of corporal punishment. Jack N. Stock (talk) 06:57, 18 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Egad. I'd support keeping this as a DAB, given C Fred's discovery. Good thing I'm not a student there. I'd be looking at a meeting with the proverbial "Board of Education". John from Idegon (talk) 04:57, 20 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Convert to DAB per Jacknstock. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 05:54, 20 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
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