Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Dungannon Cricket Club
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- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was delete. The dissenting keep votes say that the team is playing at the "highest possible club levels", but this has been shown not to be the case; the team is three tiers below that level. Moretwin asked a reasonable question: "Why would you want a situation where a club gets relegated, its article is deleted, then it gets promoted and the article has to be re-created?". Generally, this is not the situation, once a team has been at the top tier ("Premier League" for this sport), the team will be subject to much more extensive coverage and the notability is also greatly enhanced. Even if the team is later relegated, the history remains notable per WP:NTEMP. However, no evidence has been given that Dungannon has ever been in the Premier League, so that argument does not apply in this case. Sjakkalle (Check!) 08:46, 21 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Dungannon Cricket Club (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log)
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Fourth Tier Irish cricket club, clearly fails both WP:GNG and WP:CLUB, no claim to significance made in the article. Mtking (talk) 07:30, 5 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Club is mentioned in third party sources as cited in the article. Does not fail WP:GNG. --Eamonnca1 (talk) 19:08, 6 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Note: This debate has been included in the list of Ireland-related deletion discussions. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 09:43, 5 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Note: This debate has been included in the list of Cricket-related deletion discussions. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 09:44, 5 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- This page should not be speedy deleted because the article does indicate how or why the subject is important or significant: it says that the club plays in the NCU Senior League, i.e. it is a senior cricket club in Ireland, the highest status of cricket club in Ireland (as opposed, e.g. to junior cricket).
- WikiProject Cricket has devised notability guidelines. For clubs, while there is no specific guideline for Irish cricket, there is for English cricket. The guideline for English cricket is that any club that belongs to "one of the Bradford Cricket League, the Lancashire League, the Central Lancashire League or one of the ECB Premier Leagues is notable. In other words, clubs belonging to senior provincial leagues are notable. The provincial leagues in Ireland are the equivalent of these leagues in England and, therefore, clubs belonging to those leagues meet the notability guidelines.
- There is no reason why each senior-league cricket club in Ireland shouldn't have at least a stub. A club may be in the fourth tier this year, but equally may be in the second or first tier in a few years' time. Mooretwin (talk) 22:09, 6 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Since others are trotting out stock responses/comments across a range of these articles ... Or they may not. WP:CRYSTAL may have some bearing here. If they get to a suitable level then an article may be appropriate. Until then, it is not. - Sitush (talk) 00:35, 10 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Most (if not all) Irish cricket club articles are being systematically targetted for deletion. Since the same rebuttal applies to the same objection being raised on every article, you would naturally expect to see the same rebuttal across the discussions. Your reference to "trotting out stock responses" is disingenuous at best and uncivil at worst. --Eamonnca1 (talk) 02:53, 10 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Since others are trotting out stock responses/comments across a range of these articles ... Or they may not. WP:CRYSTAL may have some bearing here. If they get to a suitable level then an article may be appropriate. Until then, it is not. - Sitush (talk) 00:35, 10 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Note to closing Administrator : WikiProject Cricket have clarified the guidelines, and Irish Cricket clubs do not meet the English criteria and are notable if they meet the WP:GNG Mtking (talk) 23:26, 9 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Not true. One of the editors here, who is seeking to get the articles removed, changed the guidelines himself. Mooretwin (talk) 22:54, 12 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- ... after others contributed to the discussion on the project TP. You really do need to appreciate that there is more than one purpose to AfD, including that it may result in an article not being deleted but being improved. There are other purposes. When CSD and PROD have gone their course without significant improvements to the article, AfD is about the only option available to bring about improvement. As things stand, various Irish cricket club articles need some additional content/verification and this is the only recourse left. Perhaps try to find something to achieve this? I, for one, would be happy if you did. - Sitush (talk) 23:30, 12 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- It's been pointed out to you several times that the reasoning of the "others" who contributed was fallatious. One based his reasoning with comparison between Irish leagues and the Lancashire League, yet the guidelines recognise the notability not only of the Lancashire League but of ECB Premier Leagues. He also pointed out that the Lancashire League has a "long history" - yet so too does the North West League (over 100 years). The other based his reasoning on the lack of a "first-class structure" for Irish clubs to feed into", yet Irish leagues feed into an ODI international team and the Ireland county team that plays county cricket in England. Mooretwin (talk) 08:18, 13 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- WP:NRVE - is very clear "No subject is automatically or inherently notable merely because it exists" so rather than going point, counterpoint about the project guidelines, can you show how this club meets the WP:GNG becouse if it does not then it should be deleted. Mtking (talk) 08:24, 13 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- It's been pointed out to you several times that the reasoning of the "others" who contributed was fallatious. One based his reasoning with comparison between Irish leagues and the Lancashire League, yet the guidelines recognise the notability not only of the Lancashire League but of ECB Premier Leagues. He also pointed out that the Lancashire League has a "long history" - yet so too does the North West League (over 100 years). The other based his reasoning on the lack of a "first-class structure" for Irish clubs to feed into", yet Irish leagues feed into an ODI international team and the Ireland county team that plays county cricket in England. Mooretwin (talk) 08:18, 13 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- ... after others contributed to the discussion on the project TP. You really do need to appreciate that there is more than one purpose to AfD, including that it may result in an article not being deleted but being improved. There are other purposes. When CSD and PROD have gone their course without significant improvements to the article, AfD is about the only option available to bring about improvement. As things stand, various Irish cricket club articles need some additional content/verification and this is the only recourse left. Perhaps try to find something to achieve this? I, for one, would be happy if you did. - Sitush (talk) 23:30, 12 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Not true. One of the editors here, who is seeking to get the articles removed, changed the guidelines himself. Mooretwin (talk) 22:54, 12 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Why would the English criteria apply? A bit of a red herring, really. Appears to be that articles on Irish cricket clubs are being systematically targeted for deletion. Are all such articles to go? RashersTierney (talk) 00:32, 10 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- It was Mooretwin who asserted that they meet the WikiProject Cricket guidelines, and there are a number of stubs on clubs (mostly created by Mooretwin) that don't meet the WP:GNG for inclusion. Mtking (talk) 01:01, 10 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Why would the English criteria apply? A bit of a red herring, really. Appears to be that articles on Irish cricket clubs are being systematically targeted for deletion. Are all such articles to go? RashersTierney (talk) 00:32, 10 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.
- Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Ron Ritzman (talk) 02:25, 12 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep - In the context of Irish sport, this cricket club is playing at the highest possible club levels in Ireland. It's the equivalent of someone trying to delete --HighKing (talk) 11:46, 13 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- You clearly failed to read both the page and the nomination reason, because if you did you will will have seen that they play in the fourth tier of cricket in there area. Mtking (talk) 21:44, 13 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Delete - The club plays at level four of the league, which is well below the standard expected per WP:CRIC guidelines until their peculiar (& unilateral) change by an interested party today. - Sitush (talk) 15:04, 13 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep - What User:HighKing said, plus article meets WP:GNG. --Eamonnca1 (talk) 17:08, 13 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- How can you support HighKing's reasons when they are do manifestly based on false information. As for the WP:GNG claim, please provide the reliable sources that discuss the club in significant detail ? Mtking (talk) 21:44, 13 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment - highest level = senior cricket. The club is in the NCU Senior League which means it has senior status and may gain promotion to the top division. Why would you want a situation where a club gets relegated, its article is deleted, then it gets promoted and the article has to be re-created? Mooretwin (talk) 22:48, 13 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Delete For the same reasons as Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Clogher Cricket Club this club is not playing at a level comparable to the ECB Premier Leagues or even at the top level in Ireland (admitted to by one of the sources) and even though some coverage exists it is all local news stuff. VERTott 10:29, 14 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- What non-local-news coverage is there of clubs playing in the Lincolnshire League? Teams in the Lincolnshire League are considered notable under the WP Cricket guidelines, so the same standard should apply here. Mooretwin (talk) 08:25, 15 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Delete as one of the sources state "Unfortunately Dungannon CC never reached the top of Ulster cricket and much of their success over the years has been in the junior ranks". Do not play at a sufficiently high level to establish notability. Separately the sources fail to meet WP:GNG. One source is an incidental mention of an incident. The other source specialises in covering junior cricket. TerriersFan (talk) 17:37, 20 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.