Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Destrehan Fighting Wildcats football
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- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was delete. This discussion and closure should in no way be taken as a particular precedent that high school football teams are, or are not, notable in general. This particular team very clearly fails to pass WP:GNG or WP:ORG, which are the applicable notability guidelines. —Darkwind (talk) 01:08, 16 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Destrehan Fighting Wildcats football[edit]
- Destrehan Fighting Wildcats football (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log · Stats)
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- Also nominating: Category:High school football teams in Louisiana
Fails GNG. High school football teams are non-notable. I am also nominating the related category for deletion. Jrcla2 (talk) 16:23, 7 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment Is there any Wikipedia policy that can be cited to that specifically states, "High school football teams are non-notable?" The article does have references, and there could probably be a decent argument made that it may meet WP:GNG. Just wondering. I suppose a merge to Destrehan High School could also be in order. Ejgreen77 (talk) 17:21, 7 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Delete as a totally unremarkable high school football team. King Jakob C2 18:11, 7 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Note: This debate has been included in the list of Louisiana-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 19:00, 7 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Note: This debate has been included in the list of American football-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 19:00, 7 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Note: This debate has been included in the list of Schools-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 19:00, 7 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Delete While I can find no policy that says that high school athletic programs are not notable, neither can I find one stating that they are. So I look at essays such as Wikipedia:Notability (high schools) for guidance. While certainly High school football is notable and Destrehan High School is notable, that does not mean that Destrehan Fighting Wildcats football would also be notable. I then look at our general notability guideline WP:GNG and compare that to the article at hand. I am not finding the type of coverage necessary to support notability for this particular high school football program in this particular encyclopedia. However, I do believe that there is a good deal of work done on this article that can be added to the Destrehan High School article--specifically, the images. That's a nice image gallery. I also wouldn't object to the sports records as well provided they were well sourced. If the editors supporting the article are very enthusiastic about supporting this particular article, I suggest that they try another wiki where it would be a better fit.--Paul McDonald (talk) 19:15, 7 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep This says it all: "While I can find no policy that says that high school athletic programs are not notable, neither can I find one stating that they are". This means an article can be written because it is not against wikipedia rules. This team has won multiple state championships and has been nationally ranked many times. There are high school football pages on wikipedia. One such page is, Rockhurst Hawklets football. If high schools are notable and high school football is notable then why are't high school football pages notable. High school football plays a very important part in American culture. Wikipedia is not addressing this aspect of American culture. It is long overdue that this is covered and pages are written concerning this topic.--User:spatms (talk) 20:29, 7 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Just because there is no policy against it does not, by inverse property, mean that it belongs on Wikipedia. This high school football team fails GNG, the most generalized of all notability concerns.
- "This team has won multiple state championships" (so have tens of thousands of high school football programs, who cares?) "and has been nationally ranked many times" (vague; also being nationally ranked does not garner inherent notability).
- "There are high school football pages on wikipedia. One such page is, Rockhurst Hawklets football." WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS is not a valid argument for keeping an article from being deleted, and frankly each and every single high school football team article should be scrutinized. Rockhurst most likely should be deleted too, but that isn't the article up for deletion here, thus it's irrelevant.
- "If high schools are notable and high school football is notable then why are't high school football pages notable." High schools are notable for their own reasons and the consensus was that they all muster GNG and have played important roles in shaping the American education system. High school football as a general topic is notable for its extensive coverage in the media. But neither high schools nor high school football thus necessitate a specific high school football team is notable; notability is not inherited.
- "High school football plays a very important part in American culture." Yes it does, which is why the general topic is notable.
- "Wikipedia is not addressing this aspect of American culture. It is long overdue that this is covered and pages are written concerning this topic." Wikipedia has not addressed many topics, high school football isn't being singled out. And, a large reason why there is little coverage on it here is because many of the articles written have been deleted or redirected per GNG, as is the case with Destrehan Fighting Wildcats football.
- Bottom line. Either high school football pages are in or out. If we're going black and white, then let's go black and white. No Rockhurst Hawklets football, Destrehan Wildcats football or anyone else. Hopefully, someone involved in the decision knows about the topic. I'll let you, the omnipotent beings of wikipedia, make your decisions. --User:spatms (talk) 1:35, 8 April 2013 (UTC)
- It doesn't work that way. Notable organizations are in. Non-notable organizations are out. Please read up on notability.--Paul McDonald (talk) 11:32, 8 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- The argument can be made there aren't any notable high school football teams in the United States because it's more of a regional or statewide subject. If so, we should never have high school football pages on wikipedia. For instance, I've never heard of Rockhurst Hawklets football, but I'm sure they're very well-known throughout Missouri and Kansas. Another example, Destrehan football is known as one of the top high school football programs in Louisiana. I'd like to use churches as an example without putting emotion into the discussion. There are a few churches known nationally, but many of the hundreds of churches already on wikipedia are known locally or regionally. When combined, these churches play a huge role in the United States. High School football should be seen as playing a big role in the United States. One page discussing high school football doesn't offer enough information regarding such a big topic. High school football team pages would add a great deal of information to the topic. Wikipedia doesn't have only one page discussing college football, so why one page discussing high school football. Both are non-professional levels of the same sport. As mentioned above, no high school program is notable if it has to stand out on it's own nationally. That is why I'm saying either allow them or don't because otherwise they shouldn't exist at all. I'm sure wikipedia rules have changed over time, maybe it's time to review this as a whole. To finally conclude my thoughts, if high school football pages are allowed, Destrehan football is notable and should be kept. I'm not even making this argument based on the many NFL players from the program. One example being "future" Hall of Famer Ed Reed. The program stands on its own merits regarding its football history if high school football pages are allowed. --User:spatms (talk) 23:35, 9 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Baltimore City College football is a high school football program that's notable per WP:GNG. But by your rationale, this article should be blindly deleted if Destrehan's article gets deleted; that makes no sense. Every article on Wikipedia should be judged by its own merit and whether it passes general notability, they should not be lumped together by topic and have all either exist or not exist. You keep arguing for Destrehan's notability but have not provided the references necessary to back up that assertion. So far, it's all been an emotional appeal. Jrcla2 (talk) 15:35, 10 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- The argument can be made there aren't any notable high school football teams in the United States because it's more of a regional or statewide subject. If so, we should never have high school football pages on wikipedia. For instance, I've never heard of Rockhurst Hawklets football, but I'm sure they're very well-known throughout Missouri and Kansas. Another example, Destrehan football is known as one of the top high school football programs in Louisiana. I'd like to use churches as an example without putting emotion into the discussion. There are a few churches known nationally, but many of the hundreds of churches already on wikipedia are known locally or regionally. When combined, these churches play a huge role in the United States. High School football should be seen as playing a big role in the United States. One page discussing high school football doesn't offer enough information regarding such a big topic. High school football team pages would add a great deal of information to the topic. Wikipedia doesn't have only one page discussing college football, so why one page discussing high school football. Both are non-professional levels of the same sport. As mentioned above, no high school program is notable if it has to stand out on it's own nationally. That is why I'm saying either allow them or don't because otherwise they shouldn't exist at all. I'm sure wikipedia rules have changed over time, maybe it's time to review this as a whole. To finally conclude my thoughts, if high school football pages are allowed, Destrehan football is notable and should be kept. I'm not even making this argument based on the many NFL players from the program. One example being "future" Hall of Famer Ed Reed. The program stands on its own merits regarding its football history if high school football pages are allowed. --User:spatms (talk) 23:35, 9 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- It doesn't work that way. Notable organizations are in. Non-notable organizations are out. Please read up on notability.--Paul McDonald (talk) 11:32, 8 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Keep(users are not allowed to !vote more than once) A list of players in the NFL was added to the Destrehan High School Football page. 7 NFL players have come from Destrehan High School. There is a chance that more Destrehan grads are drafted this year, as they have received draftable grades by the NFL. 7 NFL players are better than some universities in the U.S. They produced many more past and present divison 1 college players, which will be added to the site. Currently, players from Destrehan are playing for Tennessee, LSU and Ole Miss to name a few. This is the highest level of college football. The school has also won 5 state championships. Keep in mind, Louisiana as a state produces more NFL players per capita than any other state. This means it is that much harder to win a state championship due to such a high talent level throughout the state. In referencing Baltimore City College (high school) which is considered notable, Destrehan compares in this way. NFL Players: Destrehan 7, Baltimore 5, State championships: Destrehan 5, Baltimore 0. (From page-Baltimore college has won Baltimore City championships, but never a state championship.) State championships trump city championships. Longest winning streak: Destrehan: 30 games, Baltimore 29 games. Do not let page content discriminate against a page. Yes, Baltimore may offer more history on their page right now, but that doesn't make it notable and Destrehan isn't. The Destrehan page is new and more information will be added such as the before mentioned college players, history of coaches, yearly results etc... If the page is deleted, it doesn't have the chance to improve. It will take work, but more history can and will be added. The photo gallery has already received some kudos and the content is actually comparable to some Division 1-AA/FCS schools. See Southland Conference schools football pages. In conclusion, based on current content against college football team pages and if Baltimore City College (high school) football is notable, then in a head-to-head comparison, it proves that the Destrehan High School football page is also notable and should be kept. This arguement is based on stated facts and not emotion. Please keep an open mind. --User:spatms (talk) 22:15, 11 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]- The number of state championships and NFL alumni a high school has can only be considered supporting reasons, at best, for notability, not the main reasons. Baltimore City Prep has 123 in-line references. The only references on Destrehan's page are either (a) lists of Louisiana high school football champions, (b) routine game recaps that have nothing to do with the program itself (WP:ROUTINE), or (c) broken links. Destrehan does not have multiple, independent sources about the football program. Head to head with Baltimore Prep it still doesn't pass WP:GNG. Jrcla2 (talk) 12:50, 12 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- When you nominated it for deletion your mind was already made up. Whatever I discuss or whatever is added to the page will not change things. As they say in rural areas, "the hay is already in the barn". That is fine. We shouldn’t all think the same. It’s not healthy. That being said, if we judge notability based strictly on the number of references, then you get Baltimore City College football. A non-relevant high school football team where someone gathered some yearbooks, the alumni association wrote a few books w/ a dash a media coverage thrown in and it became notable. It matters what teams produce on the field not what they have referenced. That is the essence of sport. What you do on the field is what matters. I understand this is an online encyclopedia, but please everyone, think real world also and not just as an academician. It is fairly obvious that the Baltimore City College football page wasn't written last month. It was allowed to remain and content was added over time. If yearbooks, alumni books and articles are what truly matter on Wikipedia, then give the Destrehan High School football page the same opportunity that was given to the Baltimore City college football page. You can’t gather 123 references in the few months the Destrehan article has been on Wikipedia. Do not kill it before it has time to grow. With regards to the subject and the page content, it should already be considered notable. Based on the accomplishments of the football team and page content itself, it is comparable, if not better than multiple head-to-head comparisons on Wikipedia. --User:spatms (talk) 17:25, 12 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- No, it actually matters what is produced in the media. Yeah, that's kind of strange. But we build our encyclopedia off of third party references and notability. I'd happily change my position if you could find some good third party references. I've gone and looked for them myself but have not found them.--Paul McDonald (talk) 12:22, 13 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- When you nominated it for deletion your mind was already made up. Whatever I discuss or whatever is added to the page will not change things. As they say in rural areas, "the hay is already in the barn". That is fine. We shouldn’t all think the same. It’s not healthy. That being said, if we judge notability based strictly on the number of references, then you get Baltimore City College football. A non-relevant high school football team where someone gathered some yearbooks, the alumni association wrote a few books w/ a dash a media coverage thrown in and it became notable. It matters what teams produce on the field not what they have referenced. That is the essence of sport. What you do on the field is what matters. I understand this is an online encyclopedia, but please everyone, think real world also and not just as an academician. It is fairly obvious that the Baltimore City College football page wasn't written last month. It was allowed to remain and content was added over time. If yearbooks, alumni books and articles are what truly matter on Wikipedia, then give the Destrehan High School football page the same opportunity that was given to the Baltimore City college football page. You can’t gather 123 references in the few months the Destrehan article has been on Wikipedia. Do not kill it before it has time to grow. With regards to the subject and the page content, it should already be considered notable. Based on the accomplishments of the football team and page content itself, it is comparable, if not better than multiple head-to-head comparisons on Wikipedia. --User:spatms (talk) 17:25, 12 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- The number of state championships and NFL alumni a high school has can only be considered supporting reasons, at best, for notability, not the main reasons. Baltimore City Prep has 123 in-line references. The only references on Destrehan's page are either (a) lists of Louisiana high school football champions, (b) routine game recaps that have nothing to do with the program itself (WP:ROUTINE), or (c) broken links. Destrehan does not have multiple, independent sources about the football program. Head to head with Baltimore Prep it still doesn't pass WP:GNG. Jrcla2 (talk) 12:50, 12 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.