Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Death of Sarina Esmailzadeh

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. Vanamonde (Talk) 20:24, 18 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Death of Sarina Esmailzadeh[edit]

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This is not notable, neither as an event nor as a person. Except for the Guardian, I could not find good and reliable sources. 4nn1l2 (talk) 14:27, 11 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Women and Iran. 4nn1l2 (talk) 14:27, 11 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

This is very unlikely to be true. I don't speak Persian, but it is quite easy to find sources about this person and this incident 1 and 2 and 3 plus more in English 4 and 5

I'm not claiming that all of the contents of these articles agree with each other or are necessarily reliable sources. But the person and the incident has attracted notability well beyond one English language media source. JMWt (talk) 14:43, 11 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

We need reliable and high-quality sources, not the likes of Harfetaze (worse than British tabloids). 4nn1l2 (talk) 14:51, 11 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry, you said there were no sources. In the space of 2 minutes I found at least 5. We can discuss individual sources and whether they can be cited on Wikipedia later, but it is clear that the person and the event is widely noted, far beyond the British media that you first claimed. JMWt (talk) 14:54, 11 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I said "I could not find good and reliable sources". Please see WP:RELIABLE. 4nn1l2 (talk) 14:56, 11 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

So you're telling me that the BBC is not a reliable source to be used for assessing notability, are you? JMWt (talk) 14:59, 11 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

BBC is good. 4nn1l2 (talk) 15:03, 11 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

in light of that I suggest you should WP:WDAFD and WP:SK. And perhaps familiar yourself with how to make proper checks before nomination. JMWt (talk) 15:09, 11 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks. I stand by my nomination as that BBC Persian source says nothing more than the reporting of the denial of her killing by the Iranian authorities. 4nn1l2 (talk) 15:11, 11 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Keep - notability shown by Guardian and BBC articles (and a lot of others in Persian). JMWt (talk) 15:13, 11 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Keep - Guardian, BBC and TRT are three reliable sources covering this tragic event Mujinga (talk) 15:34, 11 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The whole thing that BBC Persian and TRT (which is not that reliable) say about this person is just reporting the denial of her killing by the Iranian authorities and attributing her death to suicide (the Iranian authorities' claim), which may be true or false. By writing articles so early about such topics Wikipedia has been turned into a site for hosting claims, rumors, and misinformation, not facts. After all, Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a news website. 4nn1l2 (talk) 15:46, 11 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Actually we do consider TRT reliable - I know that only because I had a reason to look it up recently. Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Perennial_sources says "Consensus exists that TRT World is reliable for statements regarding the official views of the Turkish government but not reliable for subjects with which the Turkish government could be construed to have a conflict of interest. For other miscellaneous cases, it shall be assumed to be reliable enough." Mujinga (talk) 16:52, 11 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Keep. Your point of view is understandable, but using the same argument, we should not have a page about Death of Mahsa Amini, because the circumstances of her death are also still disputed. Regardless, the cocerned page is not titled "Killing of Sarina Esmailzadeh", but "Death of Sarina Esmailzadeh" as an event that attracted enough attention to have notability and warrant its own article. The page is reporting the events from both perspectives, based on the available sources. Also, reliable coverage of this topic exist in languages other than English (in addition to the aforementioned), such as in German wdr.de, zeit.de, in Potuguese dw.com/pt-br, in French lemonde.fr, etc etc.-- Ideophagous (talk) 16:16, 11 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
This is not comparable with Death of Mahsa Amini as that event has sparked a lot of protests and has a protracted aftermath and cannot be ignored. But this one did not and most probably will never have any consequences or significant aftermath. It's just another death among many others (at least 100 people have been killed so far in Iran). 4nn1l2 (talk) 16:36, 11 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
First, it's a death among 185 reported so far that has attracted enough attention to be reported by major news outlets in multiple languages. There are only 4 or 5 such deaths during these events that attracted similar or more attention including Mahsa's (see also Death of Nika Shakarami and Death of Hadis Najafi). So it's definitely not like the other 180+ deaths, which have remained nameless, or only reported by name in primary sources such as Amnesty or IHR. Secondly, we had Death of Mahsa Amini article way before the protests became very significant, on the basis of the widescale coverage by media, not because of the consequences of the death itself, which were still unecertain at the time. There have been incidents that were covered on Wikipedia such as Death of Julen Roselló and Death of Rayan Aourram, due to their widescale media coverage, even though they have largely been forgotten by now, and had no significant consequences.-- Ideophagous (talk) 16:50, 11 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
This one is different. There is no doubt that Najafi was killed during the protests. There is also no doubt that Shakarami was a protester (although the relation of her death to the protests is disputed). But regarding Esmailzadeh, it's not even clear that she was indeed a protester. There are too much rumors, claims and misinformation on the air right now. For example, her mother (which ArabNews strangely claims to be dead now+British tabloids) denied that her daughter was a protester. Of course, someone may claim this is a forced confession but Wikipedians have no means to verify any of these. Reliable and professional sources such as BBC do not involve themselves with such rumors or claims. The only thing that BBC says about this person is the reporting of the denial of her killing by the Iranian authorities. And we at the Wikipedia are supposed to take this piece of news as a sign of the notability of the event and write a stand-alone article on the most shaky foundations! No surprise that the final result may be just a mishmash of claims, rumors, and misinformation.

All in all, the narratives about this person are fishy. You are definitely a well-meaning person and you may think that you are helping the Iranian women and the free circulation of information by writing an article about her death so early. But it may have the opposite effect if the whole story turns out to be just false. 4nn1l2 (talk) 03:33, 12 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
If it turns out she was not a protestor and had committed suicide, we will update the article to say as much. I think it would still be notable regardless, based on the media coverage, even if she had been reported to have committed suicide from the get-go. Whether this helps or does a disservice to the protests in Iran is not Wikipedia's concern.-- Ideophagous (talk) 06:14, 12 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

This, exactly. The whole purpose of the notability criteria is that editors do not try to speculate as to what might or might not emerge from a developing news story but reflect what the professionals are reporting about it. The idea that we should not take something that the most reliable news sources are all reporting as notable is for the birds. JMWt (talk) 06:57, 12 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

How told you she committed suicide? the same government who killed Mahsa? The same government who killed Navid Afkari? 2A02:58:149:A800:B543:5712:6377:360C (talk) 19:34, 12 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I really dont get why you insist on saying that the death of Hadis, Nika and this girl is less important than Mahsa. All people have used their hashtags so it has to be informed. These girls got killed very dramatically even more dramatic than Mahsa. Instead of wasting your time judging whose

death is more important go watch what are people fighting for. The islamic republic wants to remove all these data in wikipedia and you are doing what they want to! 2A02:58:149:A800:B543:5712:6377:360C (talk) 19:32, 12 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Please keep a NPOV regarding this matter. The creation of an article is based on the topic's notability, not who or what faction will benefit or not from the publication of the article. Regardless, it seems most editors agree on the notability of this event.-- Ideophagous (talk) 19:24, 15 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Keep. The notability of the incident is very clear. Echoing what others had said, the coverage of her death is in The Guardian, BBC, CNN, DW, and Forbes. All are reliable news sources and all name her specifically. ✠ SunDawn ✠ (contact) 16:43, 11 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
CNN just mentions her name and this is far from coverage which is needed for notability. 4nn1l2 (talk) 16:56, 11 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
That's just one source. Forbes also reports it passing, but Aljazeera covered the topic signficantly enough. Technically, we only need one source with significant coverage for notability, but people above have posted at least 5 with non-trivial coverage, and that's not including Persian sources, in addition to primary sources like Amnesty and Iran Human Rights that gathered the data and created the initial report.-- Ideophagous (talk) 17:05, 11 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Keep - there is also further coverage from the Guardian: Iran: further protests announced after death of 16-year-old vlogger – video report, which supports the notability of the event; ITV also reports, and Teen Vogue offers context, as does Al Jazeera. The international coverage, reported effects on the current protests, and the developing nature of the news favors keeping this article, per the WP:EVENT guideline. Beccaynr (talk) 18:34, 11 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Keep. The notability is clear. Her notability is increasing in media. Details of her life including her political views, family members, ethnicity, ... shall surely be published soon and could be added in article. She comes from Karaj, the same city where from the killed Azerbaijani Woman Hadis Najafi comes. Savalanni (talk) 21:51, 11 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Keep. Also looks notable to me. Fad Ariff (talk) 10:51, 12 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Strong Keep notable per sources. ZEP55 (talk) 19:05, 13 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Comment More sources: How two teenagers became the new faces of Iran’s protests (Irish Times, Oct. 14, 2022, "Nika Shakarami and Sarina Esmailzadeh left their homes to join anti-regime demonstrations. They never returned"), Killing of another teenage protester gives Iran uprising a new symbol (Washington Post, Oct. 10, 2022). Both sources provide further secondary support for the WP:EFFECT of this event. Beccaynr (talk) 19:37, 15 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Keep. As amply demonstrated by the sources in the article and mentioned here, Esmailzadeh's death has received significant coverage in multiple reliable sources. gobonobo ⁺ ^c 06:58, 17 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Keep. A fully notable article. Iranwatcher (talk) 21:43, 17 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.