Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Dans le Noir

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. (non-admin closure) Ben · Salvidrim! ✉ 16:31, 14 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Dans le Noir[edit]

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Neither the cited sources nor anything else suggests that this business satisfies Wikipedia's notability guidelines. The nearest thing there is to a suitable source is one brief article in the New York Times, but that is not sufficiently substantial coverage on its own. The editor who uses the pseudonym "JamesBWatson" (talk) 14:14, 7 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Companies-related deletion discussions. Eastmain (talk • contribs) 20:32, 7 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Food and drink-related deletion discussions. Eastmain (talk • contribs) 20:32, 7 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Keep. @JamesBWatson: See the references listed at https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dans_le_Noir_%3F Eastmain (talk • contribs) 20:36, 7 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, I have seen those references. Have you? Or did you just see that there are rather a lot of them and assume that meant the article was well-sourced, without actually checking the sources? Did you notice that the article is tagged with "Cet article ne cite pas suffisamment ses sources"? (For non-readers of French, that is to say the article is tagged for inadequate citation of sources.) It is also tagged with "Le ton de cet article ou de cette section est trop promotionnel ou publicitaire" (i.e. tagged as promotion or advertising). The French article is, in fact an absolutely classic example of WP:BOMBARD: you write a promotional article on your non-notable topic, and in order to give the impression of notability you fill it with a large number of references, without regard to the quality or relevance of those references.

I wasn't going to mention the French article, as it doesn't seem to me to contribute anything useful, but since you have asked I shall give a summary of the kinds of references there are.

Dans le Noir's own web site.

A page on a web site which near the top of every page bears the notice "MARKETING COMMUNICATION MEDIAS DIGITAL". I don't think anyone needs to understand French to work out how much of an independent source that is.

A four sentence mention in a page on a web site called "About Time", which says that the best thing about "Dans le Noir" is that it is mentioned in a film called "About Time", same as the title of the web site.

A brief mention (three sentences or so? I forgot to make a note of the number when I checked the reference) of the fact that two members of the British royal family are "rumoured" to have dined at Dans Le Noir.

A page about a new business set up by Didier Roche, including a mention in one sentence of the fact that he was also the founder of "Dans Le Noir". No actual information about "Dans Le Noir".

An interview about activities in the dark, in which in one answer to one question the interviewee mentions dark restaurants. He does not make it explicit that he has in mind this particular chain of reataurants, but even making the reasonable assumption that he has, it is not substantial coverage by any stretch.

Some pages which don't actually mention "Dans le Noir".

A couple of pages where the original is no longer available and the archive URL in the article's reference just leads to a page saying "We are not allowed to archive this url".

One writer's personal account of a visit to Dans le Noir on Huffington Post.

The short answer, therefore, is that the references in the French Wikipedia article do not come within a thousand miles of the kind of coverage required by Wikipedia's notability standards. The editor who uses the pseudonym "JamesBWatson" (talk) 09:36, 8 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Keep per the significant coverage in multiple independent reliable sources.
1. Alston, Adam; Welton, Martin (2017). Theatre in the Dark: Shadow, Gloom and Blackout in Contemporary Theatre. London: Bloomsbury Publishing. ISBN 1474251196. Retrieved 2018-08-12.
  The book notes:
  
  But it is Dans Le Noir? that has ended up as the biggest commercial success. Dans Le Noir? now has permanent branches in London, Paris, Barcelona and St. Petersburg, and temporary restaurants have popped up in Moscow (2006), Lille (2007), Warsaw (2008), Bangkok (2008 and 2010), Geneva (2009), New York (2011/2013) and Riyadh (2013) (see Dans Le Noir 2014). The Parisian branch was the first, founded by the social entrepreneur Edouard de Broglie, in cooperation with Etienne Boisrond. It opened in 2004 with the support of the Paul Guinot Foundation for Blind People, which is a charitable organization that also supported Reilhac's Le Goût du Noir five years earlier. However, Dans Le Noir? was always intended by de Broglie as a company that could transform social responsibility into a profitable business capable of employing a large number of visually impaired and blind people in a visionist labour market, and it now self-supports as a private company (de Broglie 2015).
2. Henshaw, John M. (2012). A Tour of the Senses: How Your Brain Interprets the World. Baltimore: Johns Hopkins University Press. p. 236. ISBN 1421404362. Retrieved 2018-08-12.
  The book notes:
  
  At Dans le Noir, a Paris restaurant that also has locations in other cities, including London and New York, the waiters are blind. All the better to serve their clientele, who, for the duration of their meal "In the Dark," are blind as well. All meals at Dans le Noir are served and consumed in rooms of profound, absolute darkness. This is a gimmick, but one with several goals behind it. Chief among them is to foster relations between the worlds of the seeing and the nonseeing, to give the sighted some idea what it is like to be totally blind, if only for an hour or so. But beyond that, Dans le Noir sees its mission as helping its clients "completely reevaluate their notions of taste and smell," according to its Web site, danslenoir.com. In an atmosphere of profound darkness, the eye is powerless to influence the dining experience.
3. Thorpe, Nick (2014). "Chapter 25: Dine in the Dark". 52 New Things: The Least Famous Nick Thorpe in the World and His Journey to Conquer the Boredom of Modern Life. Bancyfelin: Crown House Publishing. pp. 105–109. ISBN 1781352062. Retrieved 2018-08-12.
  The book notes:
  
  I'd been told about Dans le Noir? by a colleague at my then job, with it being described as a dining experience like no other. It was a fairly standard French concept restaurant with the hook being that you ate a three-course meal in total and absolute darkness. Although you can choose whether to eat fish, meat or vegetables, you have no idea what the blind waiters are actually going to serve you. What's that? Oh yes, 40% of the staff (including all the waiters) are blind.
  ...
  The restaurant is fairly non-descript from the outside, and could easily be mistaken for any of the dilapidated neighbouring bars that line the streets of Farringdon in London. It provides a bank of lockers along one wall for diners to deposit all bags, phones and anything that could produce light.
  ...
  The darkness in the dining room was absolute. Literally no light whatsoever.
  ...
  Our dinner lasted two and a half hours. Once we had acclimatised to the darkness, it was actually incredibly liberating to be able to act in whatever way you pleased with no fear of anyone seeing you. Of course, we behaved like children and threw food at each other, scared ourselves with surprise hair pulls, and generally acted up. But why wouldn't you? The beauty of that kind of dining experience is that it allows you to regress to a happy place normally reserved for small children but now deliciously reinvented for slightly drunk adults.
4. Huet, Natalie (2011-12-02). Bremer, Catherine; Casciato, Paul (eds.). "Blind French eatery seeks to conquer New York". Reuters. Archived from the original on 2018-08-12. Retrieved 2018-08-12.
  The article notes:
  
  A French restaurant where diners cannot see what they are eating, often spill their wine and must conduct conversations while staring into pitch darkness has proved such a success in Europe that it is making a foray into the Americas.
  After expanding from Paris into London, Moscow, Barcelona and St. Petersburg, the “Dans Le Noir” chain, staffed by blind waiters, will open an outlet in the neon-lit tourist hub of New York’s Times Square this month.
  ...
  Dans Le Noir, French for “In the Dark,” is not the first restaurant of its kind, although it has spread the fastest, having served more than a million people at its restaurants and temporary venues in Warsaw, Geneva and Bangkok.
  ...
  The first permanent Dans Le Noir restaurant opened in Paris in 2004, followed by London in 2006. At the time, the British tabloids were harsh, Edouard de Broglie recalls.
5. Rackl, Lori (2010-05-12). "Blind tasting - More than culinary curiosity, 'dark dining' eateries make people see food in a new light". Chicago Sun-Times. Archived from the original on 2018-08-12. Retrieved 2018-08-12.
  The article notes:
  
  We were sitting in pitch blackness in London's Dans le Noir restaurant.
  French for "in the dark," Dans le Noir serves multicourse meals in a room where you can't see a single, solitary thing, from your plate of mystery food to the faces of your fellow diners. Blind waiters guide you through a wonderfully disorienting evening that begins when you put your right hand on the shoulder of the person in front of you and follow a clumsy conga line into the dark-as-a-cave dining room.
  ...
  Dans le Noir is part of a "dark dining" trend that started a decade ago in Zurich. Four blind people created a restaurant called Blindekuh, the German word for the game blind man's bluff. The novel concept caught on in Europe and more recently has spread to Asia and North America.
  Dans le Noir opened in Paris in 2004, followed by franchises in London and Barcelona. Raclin said the first U.S. outpost in slated to open in New York later this year.
  Diners at Dans le Noir choose from one of four color-coded mystery menus: green for vegetarians, red for meat eaters, blue for seafood lovers and white for those willing to be completely surprised. I figured I'd go big or go home, so I went with white.
6. Button, James (2006-06-17). "Diners stumble on a restaurant that turns tables on its customers". The Sydney Morning Herald. Archived from the original on 2018-08-12. Retrieved 2018-08-12.
  The article notes:
  
  My family and I are in Dans le Noir, a new London restaurant where, as the English translation of the name suggests, you eat in the dark. By dark I don't mean shadowy or can't-quite-see, like being under a doona or in a forest on a moonless night. I mean where you cannot even see your hand in front of your face.
  ...
  Dans le Noir opened in Paris in 2004 and in London in February, the brainchild of two Frenchmen, Edouard de Broglie and Etienne Boisrond, in alliance with a blind association. De Broglie says he had made some money in IT and wanted to invest it in something useful. The London restaurant provides work for 10 blind or partially-sighted waiters.
7. Gilbert, Ian (2008-06-07). "A dinner that's out of sight". The Sydney Morning Herald. Archived from the original on 2018-08-12. Retrieved 2018-08-12.
  The article notes:
  
  I'm dining in the dark at London's Dans Le Noir (In The Dark), and when I say dark, this is pitch-black, can't-see-your-hand-in-front-of-your-face dark. The concept is simple and symbolic: all the waiters are blind and for the duration of your meal, the tables are turned. The waiters are in command: you rely on them to lead you to your seat, to deliver the meal and to lead you back to the ante-room.
  On arrival, we choose a menu colour: white (could be anything), red (no seafood), blue (seafood) and green (vegetarian). Then, leaving bags and anything light-emitting - mobile phone, electronic car key, even a watch with a fluorescent dial - in the lockers provided, we are instructed to hold the shoulder of the person in front while our waiter, at the head of this tentative conga line, guides us through the curtain into the gathering gloom. I'm not afraid of the dark but am not exactly enamoured of claustrophobia. Once seated I feel fine.
  Dans Le Noir originated in Paris four years ago and has expanded to include Moscow and London, in Farringdon, within sight of St Paul's Cathedral and a short hop from the St Pancras Eurostar terminal.
8. Gecker, Jocelyn (2004-09-23). "Blind feed the blind at new Paris eatery". Boston.com. Associated Press. Archived from the original on 2018-08-12. Retrieved 2018-08-12.
  The article notes:
  
  At "Dans le Noir" -- In the Dark -- it's not just that the lights are off and curtains closed. Diners sit in a room of inky blackness that the eyes never adjust to. And that's the idea.
  ...
  The 55-seat restaurant, which opened in July on a street beside the Pompidou Center museum, draws a diverse crowd that comes for a variety of reasons.
9. Cody, Gemima (2018-06-19). "Dining in the dark at Dans le Noir". Good Food. Fairfax Media. Archived from the original on 2018-08-12. Retrieved 2018-08-12.
  The article notes:
  
  As far as immersive dining experiences go, it's probably a lot more comfortable to dine in Dans le Noir's impenetrable darkness than at London's all-nude Bunyadi. But I guess that depends on which of your fears is greater: public nudity, or dining with strangers while deprived of a key sense for more than an hour.
  Both experiences are guaranteed to push your buttons. But at Dans le Noir, the French franchise that now has a branch at South Yarra's Como Hotel, there's more to its pitch than a gimmick.
  You might have heard of the franchise, also known as dining in the dark. The Paris branch was founded by socially-minded tech entrepreneur Edouard de Broglie in 2003 as a way to titillate diners through sensory deprivation but also educate them by hiring visually impaired servers to tell their stories over dinner. Now a global interest, you can have a literal blind date at nine branches worldwide, including London, New York, Auckland, and in Melbourne.
  ...
  I feel frustrated. Better food could lift this sense-bending, deeply moving experience into the stratosphere. I tell them so. Last I heard, the menu is under review. I hope it is. This is a porthole into a different universe I think you need to step through. We need more people to step into the darkness and emerge into the light.
10. Fabricant, Florence (2011-12-06). "At Dans Le Noir, Dining in the Dark". The New York Times. Archived from the original on 2018-08-12. Retrieved 2018-08-12.
  The article notes:
  
  This gives a whole new meaning to “mystery meat.” At Dans Le Noir, which started in Paris eight years ago and has branches in London, Barcelona and St. Petersburg, Russia, customers dine in a pitch-dark room without knowing the details of the menu. The waiters are all blind or visually impaired.
  ...
  “It becomes a totally surprising experience,” said Edouard de Broglie, the chief executive of the Ethik Investment Group, which owns the restaurants. “After dinner we show them photos of what they ate and the menu, and they can’t believe it. They might get the difference between carrots and peas, but they confuse veal and tuna, white and red wine.”
11. Zittel, Brian E. (2004-10-15). "Meanwhile: A blind date for dinner". The New York Times. Archived from the original on 2018-08-12. Retrieved 2018-08-12.
  The article notes:
  
  Two friends and I were dining in pitch darkness, or "dans le noir," as the French say - which was also the name of the restaurant. The concept behind this popular new eatery in Paris's 4th Arrondissement is for the seeing to experience what it's like to be blind - all with the help of a very patient blind wait staff.
  We entered Dans le Noir through a lighted bar area, which seemed quite normal except for the lockers where we put our cellphones and anything else that gave off light. We checked out the chalkboard menu and placed our orders before the blind server took us behind a door cloaked in a black curtain.
  This is an opinion piece. The author is Brian E. Zittel. According to https://jmsc.hku.hk/people/brian-zittel/, "Brian E. Zittel has worked for The New York Times and its global edition since 1996."
12. Stoneback, Diane W. (2012-04-17). "At New York's Dans Le Noir, you dine in total darkness. A meal there is both fascinating and disorienting". The Morning Call. Archived from the original on 2018-08-12. Retrieved 2018-08-12.
  The article notes:
  
  At Dans Le Noir, one of New York City's newest restaurants, I couldn't see the food on my plate, let alone the dining table, my dining companion or the dining room.
  ...
  Before entering the restaurant's dark — really DARK — dining room for my Dans Le Noir dinner, I also had to sign a release, stow belongings that could give off light (including cell phone and camera) and agree to stay in my seat unless I summoned an escort to lead me out of the darkness.
  Dans Le Noir servers who guide guests and deliver their food understand the challenges of eating in the dark. All are visually impaired or blind.
  ...
  ...
  Dans Le Noir (French for eating in the dark) opened Feb. 27, after four months of snarls in the city's permit process. The chain, started in 2004, dishes up similar experiences in Paris, Barcelona, London and St. Petersburg, Russia. Even Prince William and Kate reportedly have dined at its London location. Similar experiences also are available in Warsaw, Geneva and Bangkok.
13. Niemietz, Brian (2011-12-07). "Dining in the dark". New York Post. Archived from the original on 2018-08-12. Retrieved 2018-08-12.
  The article notes:
  
  Walking into the bar area of Dans le Noir in London seems no different than strolling into any other restaurant. People mingle, drinks are served and, when table settings are in place, customers are guided to their seats. But that’s when things get shady.
  ...
  For those who can’t, there are panic buttons near tables. Infrared cameras in the dining room provide additional security. And don’t worry if you hear barking. It’s not coming from the kitchen, but from the guide-dog kennel downstairs, where the servers keep their companions.
  Vulnerability is part of the experience, according to Dans le Noir co-founder Edouard de Broglie, who debuted the concept in Paris, the City of Light, in 2004, before opening outposts in London, Barcelona, Moscow and St. Petersburg, Russia.
14. Rodgers, Keeley (2016-06-30). "Keeley Rodgers has an unusual evening at Dans le Noir in London". The Oxford Times. Archived from the original on 2018-08-12. Retrieved 2018-08-12.
  The article notes:
  
  A nice bonus on our first (and long-awaited) visit to Dans le Noir in Clerkenwell, London. Except the catch is, we won’t have a clue what we’re eating until ... we’ve eaten it. That’s the thing about the experience at the capital’s dining in the dark restaurant; it’s full of surprises and added extras. You have to find it first; its inconspicuous façade almost passes you by but once you find the mysterious front door you’re made to feel very welcome.
  It was certainly an evening for firsts. First up, my two guests and I were shown to the lockers where we were instructed to put our belongings including any illuminated watches. I must say it felt quite liberating to “have to” lock our phones away for the evening not to be disturbed. And you can see why any light source isn’t permitted in the restaurant itself. Obviously the whole concept is that you’re dining “in the dark” but I underestimated just how dark it would be; you can’t see your hand in front of your face, literally pitch black.
  And unlike any other restaurant you’re asked what you can’t eat instead of choosing what you want for your dinner. There are three menus; green for vegetarians, red for meat eaters and white for chef’s surprise.
15. Rodríguez, Sandra (2004-12-10). "Rica aventura a ciegas - Un restaurante parisino ofrece a los comensales la posibilidad de ser invidentes por una velada". Mural (in Spanish). Grupo Reforma. Archived from the original on 2018-08-12. Retrieved 2018-08-12.
  The article notes:
  
  En la Ciudad Luz, paradójicamente, se abrió un restaurante atendido por meseros ciegos donde se come en la más completa oscuridad.
  Llamado Dans le Noir, está tan de moda que hasta el Primer Ministro de Francia, Jean-Pierre Raffarin, ha cenado ahí.
  La intención principal del propietario, Edouard de Broglie, es enseñarle al visitante cómo es la vida para los invidentes. Sin embargo, también tiene otros propósitos.
  ...
  Cuando una persona llega a Dans le Noir, es recibida por un anfitrión que sí puede ver, quien le asigna un mesero. Este último le pide que coloque una mano en su hombro, y la guía en la oscuridad hasta su mesa.
16. Rayner, Jay (2006-05-28). "Dans Le Noir, London EC1 - restaurant review". The Guardian. Archived from the original on 2018-08-12. Retrieved 2018-08-12.
  The article notes:
  
  Dans Le Noir, on London's Clerkenwell Green, is the British branch of a Parisian concept, which invites diners to eat in a blacked-out room. It is literally like no other in this country.
  ...
  As my companion I invited Peter White, the BBC's disability affairs correspondent, on the grounds that to a blind man, it would be just another bloody restaurant. This, it turned out, was not quite the case. As he explained, the blind live in the world of the sighted and therefore have an expectation that those who can see may be relied upon for certain basic practicalities: where a step or doorway might be located in an unfamiliar room, for example. Tonight we would all be blind.
  ...
  As decor is not going to be a big part of this, I'll get it out of the way. At the front is a dimly lit, wood-floored bar area, lined with lockers where you stow personal items. A darkly lit corridor then leads, via two sets of blackout curtains, to the dining room. Just so we are in no doubt, it really is completely black: closed eyes, behind a blindfold in a blacked-out room. While the staff in the bar are sighted, those in the dining room are not. The service we received from them, Peter said, was 'confident but familiar. We can make any length of journey, but the last two feet are always difficult. We lack precision. It was interesting to feel the waitress groping about in the way I might.'
17. Gerard, Jasper (2008-07-11). "London restaurant review: Dans le Noir?". The Daily Telegraph. Archived from the original on 2018-08-12. Retrieved 2018-08-12.
  The article notes:
  
  I'd give the restaurant marks for employing the visually impaired in a way that utilises their blindness. But receiving the bill, I realise there is little altruistic about the place. If £187 for three is not daylight robbery, that is due only to the lack of daylight. If this joint has any merit, I'm in the dark about it.
18. Simon, Scott; Beardsley, Eleanor (2004-09-04). "Profile: Dining in the dark at "Dans Le Noir?" in Paris". Weekend Edition. NPR. Archived from the original on 2018-08-12. Retrieved 2018-08-12.
  The article notes:
  
  A new restaurant in Paris offers diners more than just a good French meal. Diners at the restaurant "Dans Le Noir?," or `in the dark,' eat and drink in utter darkness. The dining room is pitch black. The wait staff is blind. Without eyesight, patrons taste and smell the food in a whole new way. Eleanor Beardsley reports from Paris.
There is sufficient coverage in reliable sources to allow Dans le Noir to pass Wikipedia:Notability#General notability guideline, which requires "significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject".
Cunard (talk) 10:12, 12 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Keep as the above reliable sources references show substantial coverage - note Cunard has provided exerpts from the articles not the whole articles. Particularly convincing are dedicated independent articles in the New York Times, The Guardian and The Daily Telegraph as well as permanent book sources. Also, independent restaurant reviews in reliable sources count for WP:CORPDEPTH as per a discussion about a month or two ago. The article can now be seen to pass WP:GNG and WP:CORPDEPTH, thanks Atlantic306 (talk) 17:03, 12 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.