Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Dale Shirkie

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus. After several relists, we're still getting "Weak keep" vs "Delete", so I think consensus for notability is on a knife-edge Ritchie333 ^(talk) ^(cont) 22:10, 6 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Dale Shirkie[edit]

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Despite passing the WP:NFOOTY guidelines by playing for one match for Motherwell, I would say that is not enough to pass the WP:GNG as all of the references are WP:ROUTINE. HawkAussie (talk) 09:10, 15 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Sportspeople-related deletion discussions. HawkAussie (talk) 09:10, 15 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Football-related deletion discussions. HawkAussie (talk) 09:10, 15 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Scotland-related deletion discussions. HawkAussie (talk) 09:10, 15 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in WikiProject Football's list of association football-related deletions.CAPTAIN RAJU^(T) 15:14, 15 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Keep - I am concerned that the nominator has not done WP:BEFORE (again) given that a very quick Google search brings up sources such as this, this and this which go towards GNG. Given ongoing career and meeting WP:NFOOTBALL I say we keep the article. The nominator is also (again) confusing GNG and NFOOTBALL. Giant Snowman 15:47, 15 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Comment Oh I'm sorry but they all are only mentions and not actually references for that particular person. HawkAussie (talk) 23:29, 15 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Keep Passes WP:GNG per the above sources by GiantSnowman. Smartyllama (talk) 00:58, 16 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Delete None of the above sources help him pass WP:GNG. As a Junior player he has little hope of passing WP:NFOOTBALL again. Dougal18 (talk) 09:33, 16 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Err once you've passed NFOOTBALL you remain passed... Giant Snowman 12:24, 16 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I meant playing in a FPL. Shirkie has played 9 minutes in a FPL and his career has declined ever since. Dougal18 (talk) 17:05, 16 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Delete Articles need to pass GNG. Special guidelines mainly suggest what types of people tend to pass GNG. However if you cannot actually find to sourcing to pass GNG the article can and should be deleted.John Pack Lambert (talk) 18:23, 16 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Comment I would agree that as it stands he passes WP:NFOOTBALL as he has played in a fully professional league when he was with Motherwell. However I would also agree that playing for just nine minutes in fully professional league is a rather questionable basis for saying that someone is notable. Dunarc (talk) 21:34, 16 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Comment I'd say the sourcing is rather thin and WP:ROUTINE. He is still playing his football career, however, how far down the league has he dropped? If he was playing actual Scottish league football I would go with keep, but he isn't, he is in non-league, so I am leaning towards a delete. Govvy (talk) 12:17, 17 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Fenix down (talk) 09:54, 22 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Weak keep The article is new and contributors should be given a chance to expand it since the subject is still play and judging with the references he passes NFOOTBALL Georgiamarlins (talk) 13:12, 22 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Comment How is the article "new" when the article is five years old. When I think of new, I think of less than a year not five. HawkAussie (talk) 04:33, 24 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Weak keep - pending an improvement of references and an article's expansion within a reasonable timetable.--Darius (talk) 14:14, 22 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Delete Only passing references or routine coverage, nothing even remotely substantial. He's a 24 year old playing in the fifth level of Scottish Football (only the top two meet FPL, so he's nowhere near it), who spent 9 minutes on the field in a FPL six years ago. WP:NFOOTBALL itself says "will generally be regarded as notable". If that word has any meaning whatsoever, it applies here. --RaiderAspect (talk) 01:27, 23 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: I'm seeing 4 keeps, only one of which, weakly in my opinion, attempts to deal with GNG, offset by four deleted including the nomination together with two comments which I consider to be leaning towards delete. To my mind there is some consensus to delete but as some attempt has been made to cover GNG, I'm delisting to allow for further debate, but would close as delete if more substantial sources cannot be presented.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Fenix down (talk) 13:41, 29 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Marginal keep. Passes the SNG but, although doubts about GNG are not unjustified, I think there's just enough. No Great Shaker (talk) 14:14, 29 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Delete I think the sources are weak still, I haven't seen any improvement since I last looked. I hardly see this player returning from the depths of the Scottish non-league. Fails WP:GNG in my opinion. Govvy (talk) 16:51, 29 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Weakest possible keep Played in the top flight of the Scottish league briefly, decent coverage from his time at Ayr, just enough coverage for an article. SportingFlyer T·C 21:14, 29 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Delete - Further to my previous comment, I have given this case more thought. Overall I think that, on balance, delete is probably the best course of action here. I would note that the last reference to him in the article is his move to Troon in 2015 - but looking at Troon's website he would not appear to be there now. A quick online search would seem to suggest he is now at Darvel F.C., who play at an even lower level than Troon, so there is nothing to suggest that his career has been notable since he left Motherwell. Basically I would say that if he had not made a very brief appearance in the top flight, I do not think that the outcome would be anything other than delete. So it comes down to does 9 minutes on a football pitch by itself make someone notable? For me the answer is no, hence - in my view - we should delete. Dunarc (talk) 21:49, 29 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Speedy keep — All articles that pass WP:FOOTY automatically pass WP:GNG. KingSkyLord (talk | contribs) 23:57, 30 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Reply @KingSkyLord: Umm, no that's not how wikipedia works, you can't have an SNG override a GNG failure. Govvy (talk) 15:04, 31 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

That's been a source of great debate User:Govvy as WP:N clearly states that it needs to meet GNG or SNG. And perhaps irrelevant given the claims that both are met in this article. Nfitz (talk) 21:15, 5 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Reply @Nfitz: ? NFooty still asks for significant coverage, which this article does not have. Does WP:ROUTINE not mean anything to you? Govvy (talk) 21:25, 5 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Reply @Govvy: 1) You said SNG not NFooty - there are other SNGs. 2) WP:NFOOTY actually doesn't say that at all, except for Youth players. 3) Please remain civil - I've not opined on either WP:ROUTINE or the notability of this particular player - just your unnecessary claim of "how wkipedia works". Nfitz (talk) 22:37, 5 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Keep per the RS found by Giant Snowman. He played in the Scottish league. Wm335td (talk) 18:58, 6 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Keep, and not because of the sources proffered above by GiantSnowman (which are only tangentially about our Shirkie), but because subject evidently meets WP:NFOOTBALL criterion #2: This player has played in a competitive game between two teams from a fully-professional league, i.e. the Scottish Premier League. (For the list of leagues acceptable as "fully professional" in Wikipedia, see here.) -The Gnome (talk) 20:17, 6 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.