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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep but with less than usual prejudice against re-nomination, should new arguments be brought forward. Arbitrarily0 (talk) 14:28, 12 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

County Borough of Southend on Sea[edit]

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County Borough of Southend on Sea (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log | edits since nomination)
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The current page was amended to the City of Southend on Sea and there was a prod raised as the page was the same as main Southend Article. The City of Southend does not exist as a governmental district that's the Southend-on-Sea City Council, while the original page was the former local government body that stopped being an entity in 1974. The County Borough had full powers, much like the current Unitary Council has, but lost these when it became Southend-on-Sea Borough Council, even though the boundaries did not change. As such I reverted back to a basic version of original. However should this page exist, or should it be a redirect to the existing Southend-on-Sea City Council page, with the County Borough history added, as currently its a stub. Davidstewartharvey (talk) 12:05, 15 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  • Note: This discussion has been included in the list of England-related deletion discussions. Bearcat (talk) 13:28, 15 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep and move back to City of Southend-on-Sea. This is a unitary district with city status while Southend-on-SeaSouthend-on-Sea City Council is a unitary council that runs it. This was discussed at both Wikipedia talk:WikiProject UK geography/Archive 26#Reconstituted districts and Talk:Southend-on-Sea#County Borough of Southend-on-Sea where there were no objections raised. Southend-on-Sea City Council should probably be merged here instead just like how Chelmsford City Council (and Chelmsford Borough Council) redirect to City of Chelmsford. We have separate articles for County Borough of Carlisle and City of Carlisle because in 1974 (district 1) the county borough was abolished and merged with Border Rural District. If you look at Southend-on-Sea in the same order you can see that district 14 only consisted or Southend-on-Sea county borough. This is similar to Category:Districts abolished by the London Government Act 1963 where the likes of Metropolitan Borough of Islington and London Borough of Islington exist separately due to Metropolitan Borough of Finsbury being merged but with Municipal Borough of Harrow it just redirects to London Borough of Harrow because its boundaries didn't change in 1965. The same logic applies here. Crouch, Swale (talk) 16:23, 15 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    • Unitary status is for the council. The district comes under the council control. If you Google search "City of Southend on Sea district atea" the only page comes up is the Wikipedia page for Southend on Sea! This is not sn official designation. Metropolitan and non metropolitan districts can receive Borough status under the 1972 act, which is why Southend Borough Council existed from 1974, when the County Borough was disestablished. The same as Castle Point, which was a district until it received Borough status in 1992. The Chelmsford argument is also void, as in government the Chelmsford area is known as Chelmsford City Council. The argument about the London Borough of Islington is also poor because it is the official designated name for the area run by the council of that name.Davidstewartharvey (talk) 16:46, 15 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    • in addition to quote from the non metropolitan district page "Non-metropolitan districts are subdivisions of English non-metropolitan counties which have a two-tier structure of local government.[1] Most non-metropolitan counties have a county council and several districts, each with a borough or district council." The district is run by a council, which is what the page should be called. Based in your argument Essex County Council should by The County of Essex?Davidstewartharvey (talk) 16:50, 15 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
      • The council is a unitary authority and the district it runs is thus a unitary authority area which is a type of non-metropolitan district. "City of Southend-on-Sea" is the way to title the district (as it holds city status) similar to City of Carlisle and City of Peterborough. Southend Borough Council would have existed prior to 1974 running the county borough and municipal borough. Districts can have borough, city and unitary status for example Castle Point having borough status since 1992 as you pointed out but its still a district! Just like Chelmsford being given city status in 2012 didn't stop it from being a borough or district. The area Chelmsford City Council runs is the district (with city status) of Chelmsford the district its self isn't "Chelmsford City Council".
      • Non-metropolitan districts can have unitary status which means they are also non-metropolitan counties but can still be in a ceremonial county. Essex County Council covers the non-metropolitan county of Essex (the ceremonial county minus Southend-on-Sea and Thurrock) just like Southend-on-Sea City Council runs the unitary district of Southend-on-Sea and Thurrock Council runs the unitary district of Thurrock. Crouch, Swale (talk) 17:13, 15 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    • but the district is an area of geographical government, so the council is the official name for the district. This document from the gov.uk describes the non metropolitan, metropolitan, unitary districts by council name https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1026384/List_of_councils_in_England_2021.pdf . Any district article should be the official name as per the UK government and not a made up title.Davidstewartharvey (talk) 17:17, 15 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • That is the official name of districts. Search gov.uk for non metropolitan districts and that's is what you get. There is no government list other than this. Districts only exist as areas of government, they don't exist as anything else, so it should be the locsl government body. Leigh on Sea has a town council, but they are below Southend City Council, managing a small amount of local government business and Fall within the boundaries of the City Council.Davidstewartharvey (talk) 17:58, 15 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep The page has been expanded. Also the discussion here is a content dispute, not something for which the deletion process should be used. Peter James (talk) 20:46, 15 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    • Comment If you had looked at the actual history of what has happened you would see that the discussion into moving the page occurred on the Southend on Sea settlement Talk:Southend-on-Sea. Slater Steven was the oerson who objected and prod the article after the change from County Borough to City title. The article has been improved by MRSD since I raised the AFD, and I have since asked the question on the geographic notability page and invited oroject members to respond[[4]], only for Crouch, Swale to be the only user to have answered so far. Based upon his own argument, the actual page that should be changed is the Southend-on-Sea City Council page to City of Southend (district), and this page either left or redirected and added to the new district page.Davidstewartharvey (talk) 02:14, 16 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
      • Further Comment I have now found an official list of local district boundaries via the Office of National Statistics https://geoportal.statistics.gov.uk/documents/ons::local-authority-districts-counties-and-unitary-authorities-april-2021-map-in-united-kingdom-/about. This is the latest version dated 2021. Although Southend received City status this year, Chelmsford that gained City status on 2012 is not named City of Chelmsford (as per Wikipedia article in the district) but just Chelmsford, the name it was given in the 1972 Local Government reforms.Davidstewartharvey (talk) 03:22, 16 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
        • That list is a list of district councils not districts. Crouch, Swale (talk) 16:07, 22 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
          • The map does not say councils, it says metropolitan and non metropolitan districts. In addition, the Council tax: stock of properties, 2018 on gov.uk which states "Table CTSOP1.0: Number of properties by Council Tax band and region, county and local authority district" [5] does not state City of Chelmsford, but Chelmsford snd describes Southend-on-Sea as Southend-on-Sea UA. Also if you go to the Ministry of Housing,

Communities & Local Government Open data portal,[6] search non metropolitan districts and Chelmsford, the district is called Chelmsford, not City of Chelmsford or Chelmsford City Council. Southend no longer comes under the non metropolitan districts list but under the unitary authority list. So therefore we have contradicting information from government bodies. Therefore whom is correct?Davidstewartharvey (talk) 17:19, 22 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: I don't know if some of the discussion here comes across as just absurd, or just very British.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Sandstein 18:12, 23 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  • For the benefit of anyone who might look at closing this discussion but isn't British -- the matter is not absurd but needs context. Southend is a former town that recently became a city, promoted in large part to honour David Amess, Southend's longstanding Member of Parliament who was murdered in his constituency office by a constituent (an event that created quite a media circus here). The article purports to be about part of Southend's recent history. It's likely well documented in local government records and there is little doubt that sources exist. At issue is whether this content is a useful step towards a developed article on Southend's history or whether it should be deleted/draftified to make way for other content. I can see both sides of that, so I won't !vote, but I wouldn't want a foreign closer to come along and reject the discussion as unintelligible.—S Marshall T/C 08:00, 3 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    The district gained city status but the settlement still exists. The current district has the same boundaries as the county borough thus this should describe the current unitary district with city status as well as the county borough. Crouch, Swale (talk) 21:05, 3 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Arbitrarily0 (talk) 19:11, 3 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
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