Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Chris Vice
- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was delete. 78.26 (spin me / revolutions) 16:00, 1 September 2020 (UTC)
Chris Vice[edit]
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Contested prod times two (my fault as I forgot about the first prod). Reason given on the talk page irrelevant (wikilinks). Not a notable wrestler and only one source in the article. Fails WP:ATHLETE - "World" title claim is controversial as that title is not recognised as such. Recommend deletion. Addicted4517 (talk) 08:28, 14 August 2020 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Sportspeople-related deletion discussions. Shellwood (talk) 08:32, 14 August 2020 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Wrestling-related deletion discussions. Shellwood (talk) 08:32, 14 August 2020 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Australia-related deletion discussions. Shellwood (talk) 08:32, 14 August 2020 (UTC)
- Comment Recognised by who? The world title claim isn't controversial, since pro wrestling hasn't a goverment body. The promotion itself is the one who recognized a title as world title. --HHH Pedrigree (talk) 08:36, 15 August 2020 (UTC)
- Yes it is because the title hasn't been defended outside of two countries ever, and hasn't been defended outside of Japan for nearly a decade. The promotion itself calling it a world title is not an independent source. Addicted4517 (talk) 08:09, 17 August 2020 (UTC)
- it doesnt matter. These are just kayfabe reasons to claim the title is a world title. There is no goverment body to recogniced a world title--HHH Pedrigree (talk) 13:12, 17 August 2020 (UTC)
- I mean, pro wrestling is scripted. There is no goverment body who recognized which titles are world titles. If the promotion promotes a title as a world title, it's a world title. The "defended around the world" it's a kayfabe reason to gain the word "world". The article says he won the World Heavyweight Championship, which it's true since Zero1 has a title called World Heavyweight Championship.--HHH Pedrigree (talk) 16:12, 17 August 2020 (UTC)
- Provide an independent source that recognises the claim. Otherwise it is controversial. Addicted4517 (talk) 08:14, 18 August 2020 (UTC)
- Not controversial . The name of the title is World Heavy-weight and× there is no goverment body. You can see any report and see the name of the title is World Heavyweight championship
- for more learning, here is an explanation from 411 https://411mania.com/wrestling/ask-411-wrestling-can-zack-ryder-be-a-main-eventer/ There are no fixed, objective criteria regarding what is and what isn’t a world heavyweight title. Every individual promotion gets to determine whether their title is called a world title or not, and there is not an independent group of wrestling journalists or historians who have gotten together to determine whether the promotions’ designations are legitimate. --HHH Pedrigree (talk) 10:31, 18 August 2020 (UTC)
- There is just so much wrong with your claims. So anyone can call a title a world title and it's an automatic pass on WP:ATHLETE? That goes against the concept of independent sourcing that is a key plank of bios of living people. Not to mention a blatant case of promotion. Your link admits; "Generally, it does seem that fans who are concerned about this sort of thing are more willing to accept a title as a “world title” if it is recognized in more than one country and is defended outside of its home country on a somewhat consistent basis. In part due to this Ring of Honor was very careful not to call its main title a world championship until it was actually defended outside of the United States". So I call on you again to provide an independent reliable source that shows that the Zero-1 title is a world title. Zero-1 saying so themselves is not enough. Addicted4517 (talk) 09:00, 19 August 2020 (UTC)
- recognized by who? Answer me, who recognized a title as world title? A magazine with no power over promotions? Websites with no power over promotion? Wrestlers fall into ENTERTAINER more than ATHLETE (the Notability guide about sports says "for pro wrestling, see entertainer"), since every promotion has his own World Title a not a goverment body to control them. Some magazines, like PWI recognized titles as World titles but has zero power over the promotions. Again, Vice won a title called World Heavyweight Championshio and that's what the article says. --HHH Pedrigree (talk) 11:12, 19 August 2020 (UTC)
- Who recognised a title as a world title? Reliable independent sources, like PWI. That is what is required in a BLP. The athlete line is more about the Lethwei side by the way - I'm simply adding a head off on the wrestling side. The claim remains controversial and I have nothing further to say about it. Addicted4517 (talk) 08:36, 20 August 2020 (UTC)
- PWI it's a magazine and has no power over promotions, just recognized for him. It's not a goverment body or a comitee. Pro Wrestling Zero 1 promotes a title names World Heavyweight Championship and every independent source calls it World Heavyweight Championship. Not controversial at all, since pro wrestling is scripted and not a real sport. HHH Pedrigree (talk) 08:55, 20 August 2020 (UTC)
- Some sources about the title: a former Zero1 World Champion Nagata loses Zero 1 World Championship will defend Zero 1 World Championship winning the Zero 1 World Championship Zero1 World Champion Masato Tanaka Chris Vice exposed the Zero 1 World Heavyweight championship Again, wrestling is scripted. If a promotion calls the title world title, every source will call it world title. PWI it's the exception and has no power over the promotion.
- PWI it's a magazine and has no power over promotions, just recognized for him. It's not a goverment body or a comitee. Pro Wrestling Zero 1 promotes a title names World Heavyweight Championship and every independent source calls it World Heavyweight Championship. Not controversial at all, since pro wrestling is scripted and not a real sport. HHH Pedrigree (talk) 08:55, 20 August 2020 (UTC)
- Who recognised a title as a world title? Reliable independent sources, like PWI. That is what is required in a BLP. The athlete line is more about the Lethwei side by the way - I'm simply adding a head off on the wrestling side. The claim remains controversial and I have nothing further to say about it. Addicted4517 (talk) 08:36, 20 August 2020 (UTC)
- recognized by who? Answer me, who recognized a title as world title? A magazine with no power over promotions? Websites with no power over promotion? Wrestlers fall into ENTERTAINER more than ATHLETE (the Notability guide about sports says "for pro wrestling, see entertainer"), since every promotion has his own World Title a not a goverment body to control them. Some magazines, like PWI recognized titles as World titles but has zero power over the promotions. Again, Vice won a title called World Heavyweight Championshio and that's what the article says. --HHH Pedrigree (talk) 11:12, 19 August 2020 (UTC)
- There is just so much wrong with your claims. So anyone can call a title a world title and it's an automatic pass on WP:ATHLETE? That goes against the concept of independent sourcing that is a key plank of bios of living people. Not to mention a blatant case of promotion. Your link admits; "Generally, it does seem that fans who are concerned about this sort of thing are more willing to accept a title as a “world title” if it is recognized in more than one country and is defended outside of its home country on a somewhat consistent basis. In part due to this Ring of Honor was very careful not to call its main title a world championship until it was actually defended outside of the United States". So I call on you again to provide an independent reliable source that shows that the Zero-1 title is a world title. Zero-1 saying so themselves is not enough. Addicted4517 (talk) 09:00, 19 August 2020 (UTC)
- Provide an independent source that recognises the claim. Otherwise it is controversial. Addicted4517 (talk) 08:14, 18 August 2020 (UTC)
- I mean, pro wrestling is scripted. There is no goverment body who recognized which titles are world titles. If the promotion promotes a title as a world title, it's a world title. The "defended around the world" it's a kayfabe reason to gain the word "world". The article says he won the World Heavyweight Championship, which it's true since Zero1 has a title called World Heavyweight Championship.--HHH Pedrigree (talk) 16:12, 17 August 2020 (UTC)
- it doesnt matter. These are just kayfabe reasons to claim the title is a world title. There is no goverment body to recogniced a world title--HHH Pedrigree (talk) 13:12, 17 August 2020 (UTC)
- Yes it is because the title hasn't been defended outside of two countries ever, and hasn't been defended outside of Japan for nearly a decade. The promotion itself calling it a world title is not an independent source. Addicted4517 (talk) 08:09, 17 August 2020 (UTC)
- Comment - As a professional wrestler, WP:ATHLETE is teh wrong standard and is explicitly stated so within. WP:ENTERTAINER is the SNG that applies. -- Whpq (talk) 18:31, 20 August 2020 (UTC)
- He is a Lethwei fighter. That's why WP:ATHLETE actually applies here. Addicted4517 (talk) 08:07, 21 August 2020 (UTC)
- no, it doesn't. You are talking about him as pro wrestler and a Pro Wrestling World title, so doesn't fit into athlete. You said "no notable pro wrestler", so we are talking about WP:ENTERTAINER. Pro wrestling = entertainer. Lethwei = athlete. --HHH Pedrigree (talk) 10:00, 21 August 2020 (UTC)
- He is a Lethwei fighter. That's why WP:ATHLETE actually applies here. Addicted4517 (talk) 08:07, 21 August 2020 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Salvio 12:47, 22 August 2020 (UTC)
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Salvio 12:47, 22 August 2020 (UTC)
- Amended nomination: Contested prod times two (my fault as I forgot about the first prod). Reason given on the talk page irrelevant (wikilinks). Fails WP:ATHLETE as a Lethwei fighter. Not a notable wrestler and only one source in the article. Notability is not inherited from the Zero-1 title. Recommend deletion.
- (Amendment recommended in talk page conversation and made due to misunderstanding of original nomination and provision of sources eliminating claimed controversy) Addicted4517 (talk) 00:55, 23 August 2020 (UTC)
- Delete Pro wrestling titles mean nothing for WP notability, so WP:ENT is what applies. Personally, I don't think he meets that SNG. More importantly, there's nothing that makes a case for him meeting WP:GNG. Two pro lethwei fights don't show notability any more than two pro boxing fights do. There's no evidence that he meets the notability criteria for martial artists (WP:MANOTE). If he'd fought for the World Lethwei Championship or the Golden Belt that would be different. Papaursa (talk) 00:14, 26 August 2020 (UTC)
- Delete: Leaving aside nonsensical jabber about whether pro wrestling "world titles" are controversial or not (WTH?), or whether or not he meets WP:ATHLETE (which guideline hasn't existed for several years now) we're left with the basics. Does the subject meet WP:NMMA? No; that guideline sets a pretty high bar that someone with two bouts in an obscure martial art doesn't meet. Does he meet WP:ENTERTAINER? Not in being a sometime-wrestler for two minor promotions, not even close. Does he meet the GNG? No. There you have it. Ravenswing 04:02, 1 September 2020 (UTC)
- Delete- the article can't even decide if he was born in 1985 or in 1991, which doesn't say much for the sourcing and quality. In other regards I agree with Ravenswing. Reyk YO! 15:58, 1 September 2020 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.