Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Charles de Chassiron (British diplomat)

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. (non-admin closure) f e minist 00:40, 23 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Charles de Chassiron (British diplomat)[edit]

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I tagged this BLP as requiring more sources earlier today, before setting out to find some. I'd assumed that a reasonable number of independent, reliable sources would exist, but my searches haven't really turned up significant coverage, so I'm now not convinced that the subject meets WP:GNG. Cordless Larry (talk) 20:03, 15 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Academics and educators-related deletion discussions. CAPTAIN RAJU (✉) 00:08, 16 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of United Kingdom-related deletion discussions. CAPTAIN RAJU (✉) 00:08, 16 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of People-related deletion discussions. CAPTAIN RAJU (✉) 00:08, 16 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Keep. Recipient of the CVO, which we have always held to meet the requirements of WP:ANYBIO #1. -- Necrothesp (talk) 13:47, 16 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Probably needs a cite for that to meet WP:V. Artw (talk) 13:52, 16 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Done. -- Necrothesp (talk) 09:34, 17 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Keep per above. Artw (talk) 13:15, 17 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for adding the source, Necrothesp. I presume that the rationale behind WP:ANYBIO #1 is that someone who has received such an award is likely to have been the subject of significant coverage, but the issue is that I can't find that coverage. Note that the guideline states that "People are likely to be notable if they meet any of the following standards" and that "meeting one or more does not guarantee that a subject should be included" (emphasis mine). I would still like to see some coverage of the subject in independent sources. Cordless Larry (talk) 15:32, 17 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Weak keep~~Keep.~~ the award is sufficient. Presu,ed in a case like that means that he is so likely to have sufficient coverage, that if we cannot find it, its the faullt of the available search tools and our access to sources. It would have to be actually shown there aren;t any sources (there are special conditions where that can be done, but it's not easy). DGG ( talk ) 05:56, 18 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Unless I'm missing something, WP:ANYBIO doesn't use the wording "presumed" though, DGG - it uses "likely", which has a different meaning. In any case, what sorts of sources would this coverage that we can't access be in? I have checked newspaper archives, library catalogues, etc., but can't really think where else coverage would exist. Cordless Larry (talk) 07:01, 18 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

You are right. I was intending to use that argument about presumed for the SNGs where the term is used in this manner. The GNG uses it in a different manner--that meeting the GNG only leads to a presumption but not a guarantee of notability . But for the question you asked, in this this case what I think would have to be checked is the major newspapers in the capital where he was ambassador and possibly where his other positions were. Have you checked Estonian newspapers? (changing to weak keep, btw) DGG ( talk ) 15:50, 18 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Nexis has reports from the Baltic News Service that mention his name, DGG, and there are a couple of French and Italian sources, but from memory they are only mentions too. I'll take another look tomorrow and also check whether Estonian newspapers are included in Nexis. Cordless Larry (talk) 22:03, 18 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I've checked Nexis again, DGG, and while doing so thought I should set out the coverage I found there, since many others don't have access. The vast majority of mentions of his name in English sources are in lists of attendees of events such as dinners, and in the Independent newspaper's list of birthdays. They can safely be disregarded, I think. There are also some brief mentions in the Court Circular, as you'd expect. The French-language sources seem to be about a different Charles de Chassiron. The Italian source is about a state visit by the Queen to Italy, and just mentions him once. Most of the Baltic News Service articles are just mentions (e.g. at the end of a short piece on a British parliamentary delegation visiting Estonia, "Before their departure on Wednesday, the British MPs will visit the Baltic center of the British Council in Tallinn and meet British Ambassador Charles de Chassiron"). One of them is a bit more substantial, covering a meeting between de Chassiron and the Estonian PM in 2004, but it's short (210 words) and pretty routine. To the main issue, though, which is Estonian newspapers. I haven't found an easy way to check whether newspapers are included in Nexis's database by country, but looking at the alphabetical list, Postimees isn't there, which isn't a promising sign. I did check the newspaper's web archive (results here), but it would need an Estonian speaker to check the extent of the coverage in each of those results. Cordless Larry (talk) 07:09, 19 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I consider it borderline. I think it ought to meet the standards for notability , but a number of years ago the standardsfor ambassadors were tightened. I argued at the time that it was the top level of a major professor, and should therefore be presumed notable . In practice, this not have consensus, though articles of ambassadors of major countries to major countries usually do not qualify. I admit it would be stretching it a bit to call Latvia a major country. I stand by my weak keep, as I thin kmy reasons still valid, but the consensus will decide.

I want to say that in my opinion you have done an exceptionally through job of looking for documentation. It still won't get print sources, but it is much more careful than the usual superficial searches usually seen at AfD, and based on this, I will take the results of your checks very seriously. U;m quite impressed. DGG ( talk ) 09:07, 19 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Nexis does include print newspaper sources, DGG, though with the caveat that Estonian newspapers seem to be missing. I suppose that there could be other print publications with coverage. In any case, I think I agree that this is a borderline case, and I'm not that familiar with how diplomats tend to fair at AfD. If the article is kept, I will try to use the sources I've found to ensure it is fully sourced. Cordless Larry (talk) 09:17, 19 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Oh, and thanks for the compliment! It's not necessary, but is appreciated. Cordless Larry (talk) 09:19, 19 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Bilateral relations-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 04:55, 21 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Keep. Recipient of the CVO, and has been an ambassador to three countries. Deathlibrarian (talk) 08:10, 22 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Keep - chief protocol officer, ambassador to several nations, and a CVO. Bearian (talk) 23:22, 22 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.