Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Carl of Vermillandia

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. Courcelles 05:23, 29 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Carl of Vermillandia[edit]

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This is a madeup name. Nobody has ever been referred to by this name, certainly not these fellows. Fences&Windows 01:37, 22 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Sweden-related deletion discussions. -- Fences&Windows 01:39, 22 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This debate has been included in the list of People-related deletion discussions. -- Fences&Windows 01:39, 22 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Delete Not so much made-up as very outdated: 14th-century latinisation, as the supplied source indicates. Unless someone can find reputable English-language books or other media in the last 3 centuries using Vermillandia for Värmland, it isn't current enough to be useful as explication. Yngvadottir (talk) 02:01, 22 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This debate has been included in the list of Disambiguations-related deletion discussions. -- • Gene93k (talk) 02:17, 22 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Delete. Vermillandia is apparently a Latin exonym for Värmland, not an English exonym. There are no Google Books or Google Scholar hits for the name "Carl of Vermillandia", and all the Google web hits appear to be derived from Wikipedia and mirrors. Since this name is not used in English as far as I can tell, it does not need to be a disambiguation page. We already have Carl of Sweden which apparently includes all of these people and others. --Metropolitan90 (talk) 05:20, 22 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Delete - even if this was dug up from a dusty Swedish book, WP:MADEUP applies; also delete the redirect Vermillandia, etcetera, especially Carl Philip of Vermillandia, which is a BLP problem because it gives rise to pages like http://www.facebook.com/pages/Carl-Philip-Duke-of-Vermillandia/153752801302994 /Pieter Kuiper (talk) 07:50, 22 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

"Made up" and "BLP issue" are continued personal attacks against me by Kuiper, which is his main objective with all this activity lately.

This disambiguation page causes no harm whatsoever, in my opinion. The exomyn exists and has been used in English. I am researching sources for this this week, as he knows, but may not have time to get them, since Kuiper has made this such an urgent matter and is in a big rush to win here. Do what y'all want with it. To me the only important thing now is to be rid of Kuiper's antagonism. I am so tired of all this harrassment by Kuiper, for years now and worse and worse.

"Hoaxes" is a personal attack that should not be tolerated. SergeWoodzing (talk) 11:10, 22 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

You have made up this name, as there are no sources that use it. That's calling a spade a spade, not making an attack. The exomyn existing and this being a valid disambiguation page are totally separate matters. Disambiguation pages are for readers to navigate between pages, not to satisfy your own minority interest in Latin names for Swedish royalty. Fences&Windows 19:43, 22 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Vermillandia is very likely to have been created long ago as a Latin and subsequent English exonym because it refers so clearly, idiomatically, to the large lake that the province was named for (and where some of my family originated). I like it as the best in English (certainly much better than Kuiper's favorite Wermeland, though there is a lot of fertile soil there too), and that's my prerogative I think. We all can have favorite terms among such as do exist, and once in a while they are worth doing a bit of battle for or aganist.

If it however is a clear misdeed to combine a known, old geographic English exonym for a duke with his known personal name exonym (these Carls were dukes; in English they were Dukes of Vermillandia, as I see it), then indeed I am wrong in trying to help readers find these people that way (it's only a cross-reference, isn't it?), and I would like to apologize if so. But I did not know that, and this was done in good faith, so I fail to see why all these repeated personal attacks about "hoaxes" and such are warranted, nor why it has become so important to reprimand me over and over in a manner that infers I had bad intentions. Where is there any evidence that my actions were not in good faith? Where does my other work on English WP show us that? A "hoax", in my book, is an agenda-oriented and intentional falsarium intended to mislead people. Hoaxing is a very serious matter in this context, and something I would never do on purpose or support. SergeWoodzing (talk) 21:39, 22 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Because he is asking for it: in this edit, Woodzing changed the names in a literal quote to make it fit with his own ideas on anglicization. Reprehensible. /Pieter Kuiper (talk) 12:07, 28 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Abstain (for now). This is a tricky one. Hellqvist's etymological dictionary is not a minor, unknown or dusty work - there are few more thorough etymological dictionaries for the Swedish language, and it is still very much in use. The Latinisation Vermillandia should be considered to be established since it is attested in that work. That said, there are also other Latinisations of Värmland that are apparently more commonly used in English, such as Wermelandia. Of course there is no harm in having a disambig page for this name if it is plausible that people might in fact search for it - but I'm not quite convinced that it is plausible that they would. Are there any sources for "Carl of Vermillandia", in addition to the source for "Vermillandia"? --bonadea contributions talk 15:46, 23 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Etymological dictionaries give archaic forms even when attested only once, that is what such dictionaries are for. All we know is that this form was used in 1357. Hellquist mentioning this form in a list of medieval forms does not make it an "established" form, not then, and certainly not now. The reference can be used for the etymology of Värmland, but not for creating noble titles. /Pieter Kuiper (talk) 15:59, 23 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The etymological dictionary shows that the word "Vermillandia" was used at some point in history. However, it does not say that anybody was ever named "Carl of Vermillandia", which is a peculiar mix of anglicised and latinised ingredients and I believe it's unique to this article. bobrayner (talk) 02:21, 29 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Delete, as made up. As far as I can tell, nobody ever used the name "Carl of Vermillandia" so it's in total contradiction to WP:COMMON. There may well be sources that use an all-Latin equivalent or an all-English equivalent as well as an all-Swedish equivalent; use whatever name is common in those sources.

However, on Vermillandia - if it's used by at least one historic source, it's not a synthesis. Let's not get rid of that redirect; quite reasonable for it to point to Värmland.
I'm open to persuasion on Carl Philip of Vermillandia. On the one hand, it's a made up term. On the other hand, it's currently a redirect - readers swiftly get railroaded to a correctly-named article.
If there are any other related articles with content (not redirects) which have such synthetic names, I think they should be moved, deleted, or redirected. bobrayner (talk) 02:21, 29 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.