Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Bogdan Janković (2nd nomination)

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. None of the arguments to keep provided any evidence (i.e. WP:RS) to establish that this player meets WP:GNG. -- RoySmith (talk) 16:59, 1 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Bogdan Janković[edit]

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The previous AfD appears to have been kept based off of Assertion of notability votes, but did not actually supply any references or sources that would in fact pass WP:GNG. The assertion was that since the subject played on a national team, he is therefore notable, even though the sport specific guideline, WP:NHOCKEY (which itself is still subject to GNG even if a player meets one of the criteria) specifically calls out only the top division national teams to have presumed notability. The player only played in the third tier of the IIHF championship, not for the world championship, just to earn promotion (which they earned in 2008–09, but only up to the second tier and he did not even play at that tournament). He has also not played in a league that has presumed notability as researched and documented in the league assessment for presumed player notability, an essay written to document leagues that have been known to be covered well enough in media that GNG-relevant sources should be able to be found. (It only means that if the league is not listed there, then we have no presumptions of the notability of a player. Therefore, it must be proven to consistently meet GNG before being added. Often taking subjects to AfD is the first step finding the sources.)

Several sources were added during the course of the previous Afd: a basic player info page, an article that mentions him once, routine coverage of a championship game where it was mentioned he played well (and is a primary source), more routine coverage of a game where he scored an assist, an article that lists him as a member of the team, more routine coverage, and game recap. His most significant is likely an interview with him when he was a coach, but the source does not appear to be independent. Yosemiter (talk) 15:30, 23 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Delete per nom, said far better than I could have (or attempted to). Previous discussion's close seems to be the result of 'yays' versus 'nays' rather than a reflection of substance. No sources were brought to light that would satisfy GNG but it was argued that NHOCKEY was english biased and that an editor who proclaimed to not know about hockey felt that the subject satisfied the "spirit of NHOCKEY". Looking through the archive of AFD's it is clear that the spirit of NHOCKEY does not support the inclusion of players like this. It is hard to do serbian searches, however I did try, as stated in the previous discussion, and came up with only routine coverage. Serbia has been frequently in danger of not being able to fulfill minimum requirements for IIHF participation, so playing in their only league of four teams or for their national team is not anywhere near being in a top league, or playing in the world Championship.18abruce (talk) 19:42, 23 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Keep The last Afd closed two days ago on 21 June 2017. The WP:NHOCKEY guideline seems to be overly restrictive with respect to Serbian leagues. --Bejnar (talk) 20:05, 23 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
- @Bejnar: Absolutely not, if you follow the Serbian league (singular) you would know they are in constant difficulty of actually surviving. During the subjects playing time the league was propped up by junior or amateur teams more than once to ensure they would be allowed to ice a national team at all. If you try to find stories on the league, what is notable is its attempts to survive, not its players. I think WP:NHOCKEY is overly restrictive to German and Swiss leagues, but to the serbian league, no. Provide sources that satisfy GNG and it helps change minds though.18abruce (talk) 20:16, 23 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@Bejnar: If you think he can pass GNG, then please provide some sources that prove it. I have listed the ones found and were added already and exactly why they are not significant, independent, secondary sources. This has nothing to do with North American bias (which exists mainly because it gets more heavily covered in NA than in most of the world) but entirely because of the coverage of where this player has played. Even if he was the best player in the Southern Professional Hockey League in the United States, he still would not likely to be any more notable than the best player in Egypt because neither player would receive significant coverage. And if I had found the discussion two days ago before it closed, I would have said the same thing. I believe the closer probably should have actually read the discussion instead of tallying the votes, especially since one the of the votes was from what appears to be a single purpose account. Yosemiter (talk) 20:47, 23 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Ice hockey-related deletion discussions. WCQuidditch ☎ ✎ 04:24, 24 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Sportspeople-related deletion discussions. WCQuidditch ☎ ✎ 04:25, 24 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Yugoslavia-related deletion discussions. WCQuidditch ☎ ✎ 04:26, 24 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Serbia-related deletion discussions. WCQuidditch ☎ ✎ 04:26, 24 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Delete: Wow, this one slipped through the cracks, and I agree that the previous close was a depressing case of headcount vs policy. That being said, allow me to address Bejnar's comments here and on the previous AfD, since he makes some classic erroneous assumptions about NHOCKEY. First off, neither NHOCKEY, nor any other NSPORTS criteria, nor indeed any notability criteria in force in Wikipedia, is under any onus to pay homage to anything Serbian. It (and they) are, instead, designed with only one principle in mind: to gauge whether any subject who meets it can pass the GNG. Hockey is a lightly-regarded sport in Serbia (compared to basketball or soccer) and receives very little coverage there, done deal, period.
Secondly, NHOCKEY doesn't define "top" league, and never has, as "the highest league in each and every country or dependency." That strange and erroneous notion would inevitably lead to playing in some beer league in Peru being declared just as notable and noteworthy as playing in the NHL.
Thirdly, NHOCKEY doesn't automatically enshrine, and never has, playing for a "national team" as notable or noteworthy.
Finally, IMHO, judging the "spirit" of NHOCKEY (or indeed of any notability criteria) seems to be code for "interpreting it to suit my preconceptions." I would rather continue to judge the text of the guideline. In doing so, the subject here must stand and fall on the GNG, and he fails it, receiving only casual mentions (debarred as counting towards notability) or routine sports coverage of the sort explicitly debarred by WP:ROUTINE. Ravenswing 08:29, 24 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Delete Clearly fails both WP:NHOCKEY and WP:GNG. Ravendrop 19:12, 24 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Keep A lot of articles shows he played top level in serbia, played for national team...notable enough! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.250.35.162 (talk) 16:27, 26 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Hello single purpose IP, please provide sources for your assertion of notability in order to pass WP:GNG. Simply playing a low-level league is not enough. (Top level league in a nation/country has never been a criterion of NHOCKEY as that would leave open the possibility of the best players in India the same notability as the best players in the NHL which is clearly not true.) Yosemiter (talk) 16:48, 26 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I checked, and this IP comes from Serbia, according to that website. The other tool may say the same country. --George Ho (talk) 16:53, 26 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Ice hockey players are presumed notable if they 1.Played one or more games in an existing or defunct top professional league; 2.Played one or more games in an amateur league considered, through lack of a professional league, the highest level of competition extant; — Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.250.35.162 (talk) 19:02, 26 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

And WP:NHOCKEY/LA addresses both 1 and 2 in the top section. #2 can be confusing without writing an essay, but its intent is for pre-NHL existing leagues and "Amateur" leagues of the Eastern Bloc and the USSR where they were amateur only by definition, but definitely not in coverage or skill. The Serbian Hockey League is definitely not "the highest level of competition extant" (not "in a country"), as there is nothing stopping a Serbian from playing in the KHL/SHL/NHL level. (Again, this doesn't matter anyways, NHOCKEY is still subject to GNG. You have not provided any GNG-worthy sources and that is the only guideline here that matters.) Yosemiter (talk) 19:38, 26 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Delete - He is certainly a good primary source about ice hockey in Serbia. However, despite my lack of understanding the language, he is not notable to all readers. The sources used in References section ([1][2][3][4][5][6][7]) do not indicate important to his field (implying failure to meet NHOCKEY) and to most publications (GNG). This one doesn't mention this guy, especially as Google includes this as part of search results. This one mentions a different person named Bodgan Jankovic (or Bodgana Jankovic), the director; so do this one, that one and that one. I don't know how the previous AfD was closed as "kept", but the ice hockey player still doesn't pass the mark. Maybe someday, someone will create an article about the director... someday. --George Ho (talk) 16:53, 26 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Keep I did an interview with this fella few year ago when he played in Romania, he was a nt member back then, standards says player have played more than 200 games...sure did — Preceding unsigned comment added by Eurohockisupreme (talk • contribs) 18:52, 26 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@Eurohockisupreme: Hello single purpose account, please read WP:NHOCKEY and the accompanying list of leagues known to have met GNG, then please provide sources for your assertion of notability for the subject in order to pass WP:GNG. Simply playing a low-level national team is not enough. Only playing for a top level senior team for The World Championship, not merely for promotion, is known to be notable. Otherwise it is equivalent to saying the Israeli national team is equivalent to the Finnish national team, which is clearly not true. 200 games is not equivalent in coverage across all leagues, hence the use of the League Assessment. Yosemiter (talk) 19:10, 26 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

And he has not even played 200 pro games. Not that it even matters according to NHOCKEY, but the voter is not attempting to read the guidelines or even get the biographical details correct.18abruce (talk) 21:52, 26 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Delete does not meet either the General notability guidelines or the hockey notability guidelines. If people think the hockey guidelines are too restrictive, they can seek to get them changed. Until them, we follow them, and we delete this article unless it can be shown to meet the general notability guidelines, which no one has even argued it does. None of the keep voters have argued there are reliable indepth sources on the subject, they just argue we should ignore this lack of sources for sports people.John Pack Lambert (talk) 01:33, 29 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.