Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Bload Bowl

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was userfy to User:Kadu-c/Bload Bowl, thanks/wangi 22:34, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Bload Bowl

Nonnotable homemade sport, likely unverifiable. NawlinWiki 16:50, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

• Answer. Hello, Bload Bowl is a real sport. It's true that it is still confidential that's why you could have been "afraid" of my article. Note that this is the English version of the article I wrote on the French Wikipedia. Kadu-c 16:55, 30 August 2006
• Comment. A quick google search for "Bload Bowl" with my preferences temporarily set to "English language results only" returns less than 10 seemingly relevant results, and some of these are in French as well (apparently as a result of incomplete filtering on the part of google). I don't know that this can be verified. I don't speak French, personally. I know enough to have figured out that some of the French results seem to be relevant, but I don't know if they're reliable. The total of seemingly reliable search results (with my admittedly weak translation skills) is roughly ten. Srose (talk) 17:05, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
• Comment It's been on fr.wiki since the end of April with a couple of people having edited it. There don't seem to be many Ghits but it does seem to exist. Notability is an issue. Dlyons493 Talk 17:08, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
• Answer. I understand your points of view. Bload Bowl website is not translated yet in English. So Wikipedia is a good way for international users to discover this sport until the translation is done. I wrote the original article on the French Wikipedia and I had no problem with the Deletion Policy. Actually I'm a bit surprised. Kadu-c 17:10, 30 August 2006
• Delete. One of my first contributions to Wikipedia was on the game of crockey, an invented sport with no players outside my extended family. After I learned what Wikipedia is not, I had to ask for a speedy deletion. Wikipedia is not a place for describing original inventions, nor an indiscriminate collection of information, nor an instruction manual, nor a crystal ball, nor a repository for original research. Without any reputable, independent sources to document the significance of this sport, it's not notable enough to be included here. Rohirok 18:41, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
• Keep the article, which is nicely done, seems to describe an emerging sport, that is relevent in other countries. If we lived in another country the article might seem more relevent. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Worthlessboy1420 (talk • contribs)
• Answer. As stated in my article: "Since the universitary year 2000-2001, Bload Bowl is officialy known as an universitary sport in French Polynesia" = recognized as a legal sport. So it's not an invented sport that some idiots play in their garden. I know that it's not as popular as football for instance that's why many of you ask questions about legitimity of this sport. It's actually well developed in French Polynesia under the control of an official league and it's really considered as a traditionnal sport now. To the previous contributor: thanks for your support, it's appreciated. It's actually an emerging sport which only want to be known and practiced by many people. Kadu-c 20:58, 30 August 2006
  • You wrote: "it's not an invented sport that some idiots play in their garden." Without a reference, there's no way for us to know that it's not. Also, please be civil and refrain from calling me and my family "idiots." Rohirok 22:02, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
  • I apologize. It's not so easy to make people discover this new sport without being called myself an idiot too each time I talk about Bload Bowl.  :/ Reference links are below. Kadu-c 22:30, 30 August 2006
• Delete unless WP:V is met; I am unable to find any reliable sources from third parties (the sport's own website and a YouTube video do not count) indicating any sort of widespread play or existence of this game. Please introduce citations (in English or French) and I might reconsider. --Kinu ^t/_c 21:49, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
• Answer. Ok I understand what you're looking for. :) Here are some newspaper articles about Bload Bowl: [[1]]. Furthermore you can find here the status of the official Bload Bowl association: [[2]]. EDIT: and I forgot this link, few words about Bload Bowl on a French website talking about American Football: [[3]]. Kadu-c 22:12, 30 August 2006
  • English translations for the above are here and here. Unfortunately, it looks like the newspaper articles are scans, which cannot be auto-translated. Rohirok 22:08, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
  • That last link looks like it links back to the main site. I hope nothing is wrong with my browser. Zephyr2k 22:47, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
    • The newspaper articles are apparently scans and say that the game was invented by some university students about 10 years ago and currently has a few hundred adherents. At best, it seems non-notable to me but everything is hosted on their own site, so it could possibly be an elaborate hoax (although I don't really think so). If anyone really wants, I can translate a couple of the articles. Dlyons493 Talk 23:29, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
• Answer. Yes the articles are scans. One of the Wiki contributors above (User:Dlyons493) speaks French according to his User Profile. Maybe he can help you. :) Kadu-c 22:15, 30 August 2006
• Proof. Here's the publication in the Official Journal which proves that a Bload Bowl association has been created: [[4]]. Write "Bload Bowl" in the field "Objet de l'association" and then click on the "Rechercher" button. You'll see the official report. Note that this website is "Le Journal Officiel". It's a document used by French Government to publish all the laws. It is also used to report creations of associations. Kadu-c 23:40, 30 August 2006
  • I don't doubt that the association has been created. The question is whether it is notable enough to include in Wikipedia. We do not know the criteria for inclusion in "Le Journal Officiel," so it does not help us determine notability. Rohirok 00:03, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
    • That Journal is legitimate and returns the following for the prefecture of Herault (a large admin division of continental France). It states the objectives of the HERAULT BLOAD BOWL WARRIORS: promotion of bload bowl and all parallel activities; organisation of bload bowl matches; installation and follow-up of the payment for the bload bowl; official classification of all the players past and present; attribution of the titles of senseï (teacher), star, hope, veteran, blue and pons; statistical official management of the bload bowler; organisation of activities having as their goal the reinforcement of friendly links between its members. I think we've moved on from verifiability which seems now accepted to notability. Have we any information on membership, competitions, funding etc? Dlyons493 Talk 00:07, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
      • Notability is also my issue. "Several exhibition games have already been played all over the world (mainly in France)" - Where else in the world? Is it played all over the world in competition level? Zephyr2k 00:20, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
        • According to the information from the newspaper clippings (graciously provided to me by Dlyons493), the sport had 70 members and 500 players as of 2003. Out of a population of about 250,000 in French Polynesia, it doesn't seem like a very notable sport even within its home region. I have nothing against the sport. I just don't think it's big enough yet for an article in this encyclopedia. Rohirok 00:40, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
• Answer. Dlyons493 wrote :"I think we've moved on from verifiability which seems now accepted to notability". Ok so you know that Bload Bowl is a real sport now. :) Zephyr2k wrote: "Where else in the world? Is it played all over the world in competition level?". Exhibition games have already been played in Laval (Quebec), New York (USA), Tampico (Mexico) and several cities in France including La Réunion Réunion. In competition level, apart from the original association based in French Polynesia, there's also an association in Montpellier (France). Rohirok wrote: "I just don't think it's big enough yet for an article in this encyclopedia". Actually the main problem of this association is worldwide communication. It's a vicious circle: if nobody talks about them then they'll remain always unknown. Kadu-c 07:19, 31 August 2006
• Redirect to Blood Bowl. Not currently notable, wikipedia can't be the first place for information to be spread it has to be the collection of other information. Oh, and a hello to Kadu-c. MLA 10:39, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
• Answer. Rohirok wrote: "the sport had 70 members and 500 players as of 2003. Out of a population of about 250,000 in French Polynesia, it doesn't seem like a very notable sport even within its home region." Let's take a comparison. There's an article on English Wikipedia talking about Pétanque which is a typical French sport practised mainly in the South. In this article, we can read that there are "about 480,000 players licenced with the Fédération Française de Pétanque et Jeu Provençal (FFPJP)". 480.000 players out of a 60.000.000 population, that's basically the same ratio as Bload Bowl in French Polynesia. It's quite surprising as Pétanque is the "4th-largest sporting federation in France" according to this article. So I don't see problems concerning legitimate existency of Bload Bowl.

Hello MLA, glad to see you here ! :) MLA wrote "wikipedia can't be the first place for information to be spread it has to be the collection of other information". Ok I understand now what you all don't like in my article. Actually I've collected information from newspapers (links above). Newspapers are a valuable source of information and probably more reliable that any Internet contents oftenly written by uknown users. Maybe it sounds "old-fashionned" for you nowadays with the Internet-era, but I could understand it. :)

I suppose that you find me particularly insistant but it's because I didn't have any problems when I wrote the original article in French Wikipedia (some Wiki users even helped me with Wiki syntax). I feel a bit upset considering the fact that I spent so many nights to translate my article into English without hoping any rewards or consideration, just with the feeling to share knowledge with other people.

However, as suggested by MLA, I wouldn't mind seeing my article linked to the Blood Bowl article rather than being a main entry if it can sort things. Kadu-c 12:16, 31 August 2006

If the consensus is to delete or redirect, perhaps it could be userfied for Kadu-c so it will still exist in English and can potentially be re-submitted to the main space when it is brought in line with en.wikipedia requirements. MLA 16:31, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

• Delete. It's a good idea to have it userfied for Kadu-c. Maybe in the future it can be resubmitted when it has become more notable. Zephyr2k 18:31, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
• Question. What do you mean by "userfied" ? I'm not very familiar to Wikipedia terms I'm sorry. Does it mean that I can write my article on my User Page ? If this is correct I agree with that. :) Kadu-c 20:08, 31 August 2006
  • Comment: Yup, that's exactly right... WP:USERFY has all the technical mumbo-jumbo, but yes, basically, the article would be moved to somewhere like User:Kadu-c/Bload Bowl for you to work on in the interim. You've obviously put quite a bit of work into it, and there's no sense in throwing all that away since I trust that you will work on the article to address the concerns above. I'm all for it, so best of luck! :) --Kinu ^t/_c 20:21, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
  • I've redirected my article to the example link you've just given me. So you can delete the Bload Bowl page now. Thanks to all contributors for this discussion. I know Wikipedia philosophy better now ! See you later ! ;) Kadu-c 21:40, 31 August 2006
    • You might want to change the link on your userpage to the new one Kadu-c. And I tagged this as db-author per above. Zephyr2k 22:03, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
    • I've updated my userpage. Thanks ! Kadu-c 22:27, 31 August 2006

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.