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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result of the debate was keep Biffeche and delete Biffeche anthem. Kudos to Dylons493 for the excellent research. howcheng {chat} 20:40, 3 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Biffeche and Biffeche anthem[edit]

Though this is a three-year-old (!) article, the more I look at it, the more I smell a hoax. I can't find a reference to the kingdom of Biffeche anywhere on Google but our mirror sites, nor is it in JSTOR or Academic Search Premier. Its website strikes me as highly suspicious--why only an English language version for a Wolof/Arabic/Frenchspeaking kingdom? why the references to selling titles? Why does it provide American and European contact info but none within Senegal or Mauritania itself? I suspect that this article is either an elaborate hoax by an American who visited Senegal (the pictures look suspiciously like those a Peace Corps Volunteer or some such would have) or by someone interested in profiting from a micronation. Of course, I'd be very happy to be proved wrong, and maybe 24 hours from now I'm going to feel really stupid for posting this--but until we can verify some of this independent of the website, I'm recommending delete delete the anthem and keep the island. Dvyost 08:21, 24 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

  • Delete per nomination. I've added the anthem article to this AFD too. Can't find any evidence that this place actually exists, let alone that it's a kingdom. Few Google non-Wikipedia links [1], and they don't seem to show much either. Of course there's information that's not on Google, but I would think that a functioning kingdom would get at least a few hits from repuatlbe sources. I'm also thinking that a kingdom would have at least a somewhat more professional looking website... Blackcats 08:42, 24 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
    • Changing vote - see below... Blackcats 04:00, 27 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • Weak keep I've been in Saint-Louis and the geography and ethnography are plausible. The history seems roughly OK - see e.g. [2]. The contemporary micronation is more dubious and I suggest tagging any of that as requiring verification or disputed. Dlyons493 Talk 09:11, 24 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
    • The link you posted mentions in passing (in French) an "island of Bifche." But the article isn't about an island at all (doesn't even mention the word). Also, effective hoaxes do tend to sound plausible - generally because the hoaxter has some background knowlege of the over-arching subject. And there's a good chance he's laughing his ass off that he was able to have his hoax remain on Wikipedia for three years with all the resulting mirrors and everything. But at any rate, plausible is not the same thing as verifiable, and if a kingdom does in fact exist, then its existance shouldn't be too hard to verify. Blackcats 09:27, 24 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment: whois gives the following info on the domain name
Registrant: LEXIDIGITAL INC
  6152 115TH PLACE NORTH
  SEMINOLE, FL 33772
  US
 Administrative Contact:
     HINDS, PAM                [email protected]
     6152 115TH PLACE NORTH
     SEMINOLE, FL 33772
     US
     727-392-5636
 Record expires on 05-Feb-2009.
 Record created on 05-Feb-2002.

Maybe someone should call them. ×Meegs 10:50, 24 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

  • Delete (pending further evidence). I find it suspicious that in their help the people page, they request only money (not volunteers, not supplies), and that they haven't registered as a tax-exempt charity in the US, where their office is located. Maybe someone should call the Attorney General in Florida. ×Meegs 11:12, 24 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • Very strong delete as almost certainly a complete fabrication - By Googling I've found this notation on some personal home page (scroll down) - "LEFT - Ed Schaffer was a bit of a paradox... He claimed to be king of a Senegalese Christian tribe known as Biffeche, although his only trip to that part of the world consisted of having his ashes buried there." This seems to certify its hoaxdom, as Ed Schaffer is the person mentioned in the article as the alleged "King Edward I." Of course, it's scattered all over teh Intarweb now :sigh:. Awesome job by Dvyost in digging this out and exposing it. Simply awesome. FCYTravis 11:42, 24 December 2005 (UTC) - Great job in rewriting legit version. Keep as rewritten. FCYTravis 20:29, 26 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
    • The site has shut down due to traffic. Here's the Google cache ×Meegs 11:52, 24 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
      • Thanks! I'd feel a lot prouder if I hadn't edited this page twice before without catching on. It's a good lesson in why we all need to be more ruthless with those {{unreferenced}} tags. --Dvyost 17:18, 24 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete as per Dvyost. -- Kjkolb 12:01, 24 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
    • Change to abstain. I am not convinced that it is not a hoax, but I'm not sure that it isn't either. If this turns out to be a keep, it should not prevent a renomination in the future. -- Kjkolb 11:41, 31 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment. From their site: "As long as you are driving or walking in Biffeche, keep your eyes open to see a Biffeche Dragon, Great Baboon, Monkey, Crocodile or Wart-Hog alongside our roads and marigots". Hedley 14:28, 24 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong delete. Looks very much like an elaborate hoax. Nightstallion ✉ 15:48, 24 December 2005 (UTC) changed per 18:26, 26 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete unless somebody can find a reliable reference. It smells like a hoax, though a clever one. 84.69.64.186 18:00, 24 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete - with a comment: this is a disturbing example of how wikipedia can inadvertently lower the total amount of knowledge in the world, due to all the echoes and scrapers that come zooming through. Googling "Biffeche" finds so many listings based on this hoax that many people would find it persuasive. Without wikipedia, Googling would quickly see through the hoax.- DavidWBrooks 18:49, 24 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
    • Delete and second the comment. I frequently wish Google had a special setting: "don't return any results from pages that identify as getting their information from Wikipedia." -- Antaeus Feldspar 20:55, 24 December 2005 (UTC) Abstain given the referenced rewrite. -- Antaeus Feldspar 16:46, 26 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • Weak Keep and edit the page to note that this is a hoax. References to this "kingdom" are widespread, and it'd be best to tackle this head-on. Flyboy Will 19:20, 24 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
    • Comment - All those references are Wikipedia mirrors because this article has been around forever. This is a non-notable "hoax." FCYTravis 19:27, 24 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment - I think it would be a good idea to report these people for charity fraud. Their "Help the people" page tells people to send money to an address in Florida (you'd think an African Kingdom would have an actual address in Africa that people could mail stuff to). At first I thought this was just a hoax for the purpose of humor, but now it seems like it's a more sinister fraud - designed to profit from the poverty in West Africa. This con artist motive would also explain why the hoaxsters went to the trouble and expense of having an official looking sign made [3] (and probably paying some locals to pose by it). Blackcats 19:40, 24 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment It's hard to tell if the kingdom stuff is a hoax or a fantasist with pretensions of setting up a micronation (it all rather resembles Sealand). Either way, there's no independent verification, even of it as a mere claim. Tearlach 23:27, 25 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Tracing this further, the abovementioned Lexidigital Inc is a web design and print services bureau at www.lexidigital.com, and the Biffeche site appears to be one they maintain. As Meegs says, someone ought to call them.
Another modest proposal: see the Official web site of Saint-Louis, Senegal, where there's a page and e-mail address for the Office de Tourisme ([email protected]). Anyone here know French? The alleged Biffeche being only 20km away, they might have a few thoughts on the matter.
Here also is an ident on King Ronald, based on the Epic Song of Biffeche: one Ronald Reisinger of Pinellas Park, FL. There has been some Usenet discussion of the matter. Tearlach 06:11, 25 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
I pulled the references to Biffeche's kingdom from both articles--the Axim one seemed pretty clearcut ("the foreignborn king") while the "Indigenous etc." article seemed more harmless, but I'd like to hold off on including that until someone confirms that there was once an independent polity known as Biffeche. Terrific work, Dlyons... --Dvyost 17:35, 26 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
I took care of its reference in Economic Community of West African States too. Am I correct that Biffeche Dinar-Haut and the entry on BDH were part of the hoax and need to be deleted and removed, respectively? ×Meegs 21:20, 26 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Looking good! Biffeche Dinar-Haut and the entry on BDH are I think redirects - I found a few and decided to leave them since the underlying article now seems OK. But it might be preferable to delete them??? Dlyons493 Talk 23:11, 26 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
If Biffeche Dinar-Haut / BDH is part of the hoax, then they should be deleted, because even their existence as redirects propagates misinformation. Have you found anything to suggest the currency is real? ×Meegs 02:39, 27 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
It looks like total fabrication to me. The area uses Senegalese currency (maybe a bit of the historical region spills over into Mauritania). I've replaced BDH with the AMEX code for ML BRDBND HLDR12/40 to give something valid in the disambig. Suggest we put Biffeche Dinar-Haut up for deletion (is the process the same for redirects?) Dlyons493 Talk 11:03, 27 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
The process is the same for redirects; check it out at WP:RfD or the Biffeche Dinar-Haut page where I put up a link. --Dvyost 16:49, 27 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Change vote to keep for one article ... There has now been a complete rewrite that seems to make this a legitimate article. I would change my vote to Keep for Biffeche - the anthem still seems a hoax. - DavidWBrooks 16:56, 26 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

  • Delete unverifiable. Any supposedly real country which has escaped inclusion in any reputable source (e.g. CIA world factbook) has to be highly suspect. I could not verify it as genuinely existing. Just zis  Guy, you know? [T]/[C] AfD? 17:49, 26 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep Biffeche, Delete anthem, per excellent work by DLyons - which neatly explains the few tantalising hints at verifiability on Google. - Just zis  Guy, you know? [T]/[C] AfD? 18:16, 26 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Keep Biffeche / Delete anthem - changed vote following excellent revision by Dlyons493. Anthem still fails verifiability. Tearlach 17:53, 26 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

  • Keep Biffeche after the rewrite. u p p l a n d 18:10, 26 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • Agree. Article should be kept, anthem deleted. Nightstallion ✉ 18:26, 26 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'm actually changing my vote to Delete. Even after the changes, the article remains unverifiable. I can't find anything named Biffeche on any links or maps listed there, or anywhere on google, searching for Maka, maps of Senegal, Petit Brak, etc. Still seems like a hoax to me, and in any case remains completely 100% unverifiable. By the way, this is apparently the king of Beffeche [4]. Flyboy Will 18:44, 26 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Don't assume that something doesn't exist becuae it's not on the Internet. There are a handful of references: e.g. the French Ministry of Foreign Affairs site [5] shows aid going to "Savoigne Biffeche" (use pulldown menus for Zone = Afrique, Pays = Senegal). Tearlach 19:49, 26 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Well spotted -[6] says they are twinned. Dlyons493 Talk 20:06, 26 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
I've found a bit more - a website for a mission based there (see Talk:Biffeche. Tearlach 03:34, 27 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep Biffeche with rewrite. Delete Anthem. (crossed-off my vote above) ×Meegs 21:24, 26 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep. Congrats to the people who worked on this. I've added a few links to early-18th century maps that show Bifeche, both the island and the region. -- JJay 02:25, 27 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'm changing my vote to Abstain for the main article (still Strong Delete for the anthem). I really have mixed feelings here. On the one hand, I appreciate all the work that Dlyons493 and others have put in to research and re-write the article. I also think the en.Wikipedia's coverage of African geography and culture really needs to be expanded. But I'm still not quite comfortable giving this article an official "Keep" vote for a number of reasons. 1. My comment above seems to have been largely ignored. I think it's quite likely that the hoaxsters are perpetrating this whole Biffeche scheme as a charity-scam to profit off the poverty in West Africa. Assuming this article is kept, it should note that the Biffeche website is a hoax/scam (but without actually hyper-linking to that site). 2. I clicked on several of the maps that the article now links to, but I couldn't see any of them actually including the word Biffeche. A couple of the old ones were really low resolution, so maybe I just couldn't see... 3. Even assuming that Biffeche has been verified, I'm not sure that its notablity has been established. If this is the historic name of an island, then couldn't that just be mentioned in an article with the island's current name? Or maybe the river's course changed over time and the island no longer exists - so then couldn't it just be mentioned in an article about one of the towns in the vicinity?... At any rate - I'm just not sure that this deserves its own article - so with this and the concerns above, I'm abstaining with regard to the main article. Thank you for listening. Blackcats 04:13, 27 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
For 1, nearly all of the bad info on the web is limited to the hoax web site and WP derivatives. I'm open to possibly mentioning the self-proclaimed king hoax in the article, but I don't think it's necessary since the WP mirrors should die-out now that we've gotten our act together. Without WP the hoax notable? I really don't know. For 2, check out JJay's antique maps from the BNF. For 3, I agree that given the poor coverage of West Africa, this article sticks-out like a sore thumb, and also that much of the information would ideally go into an article about a population-center, but the island is pretty big, and (I think) notable enough for an article. ×Meegs 06:26, 27 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
I agree that unfortunately, as we're the only people who seem to have written about this hoax, to try to expose it here would be original research. Pity... but it's not really our place to address it until someone else does. --Dvyost 07:02, 27 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah - I guess that's true that we probably shouldn't include about the hoax. I was just wanting to make sure that if anyone Googled to see if the website was legit then they would know for sure that it wasn't. I may see about contacting the FL attorney general's office like Meegs suggested above and ask them to investigate this as potential charity fraud... Blackcats 07:16, 27 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Or just point it out on a very basic web page of your own, tossed up on Geocities. Once the wikipedia mirrors start dropping this article, it won't take long to become the number two ranking for "Kingdom of Biffeche"... --Dvyost 07:24, 27 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Re the valid notability question raised - the area in question is where Arab North Africa starts to merge into black Sub-Saharan Africa. It was also an early locus of competition with the Dutch, English and French trying to expand. It was one of the early slave areas a bit north of the famous island of Gorée and the Gambia (of Alex Haley and Roots fame). So there's a lot of interesting history. There's also a stong Wiki tradition that places/settlements are intrinsically notable. Dlyons493 Talk 10:38, 27 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah - I wasn't disputing that tradition - I just wasn't sure if this was the current name of a place, or just a historic name - in which case it could maybe redirect to and be mentioned in an article with the current name for its title... Blackcats 10:13, 28 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment: Quite a bit of effort was made to fix this article, but I'm not following what it's saying. Some of the maps don't have any names on them and others don't have the names of what is supposed to be on them. I looked at the online sources, but I can't read French and only one of them is in English. From the English source, I am unable to verify the article's claims. I'll think about changing my vote. -- Kjkolb 04:32, 27 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • Those are all good points. I just want to say that the three map links from the BNF that I added all show and name the island/and or region with good resolution. If you can find the Senegal river on the maps, scroll upstream a bit and you should see the island. I don't know if the area was important, so far I have just tried to locate it on old French maps. -- JJay 04:43, 27 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Those are very helpful. Bifiche is one of five big islands in the river's delta. The first map is the easiest to find the island on, but the second map (on which East is up and Bifiche is written in light & thin script) shows the most detail, including a number of locations on the island. I'm not as happy with the modern maps – as Blackcats suggested, the island's size and shape may have changed a bit. ×Meegs 05:33, 27 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
It's an interesting topic to look into. Based on some of the maps, the name seems to refer to the region as well. I added the reference in the first paragraph that describes the island, but we need better primary sources. The area has to have some interest because the French maintained a fort at St. Louis for centuries. The BNF has many first-hand accounts but they are not searchable. In any case, I hope to expand a bit on Dlyons493 excellent work. -- JJay 05:49, 27 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Re the difference between maps - that's to be expected as all the area is very flat and low-lying. The river is slow-moving and silty and much of the delta is mangrove swamp. So the peripheries of the islands would naturally change quite a lot over time. Dlyons493 Talk 10:49, 27 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
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