Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Ben Clark (footballer, born 1984)

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus. This is quite a tricky close, yes initially a technical NFOOTY pass, but questionable GNG at best.

However, it seems that during the discussion consensus elsewhere regarding the level of professionalism in the main league in which the player played decided that it was not fully professional.

There's an argument that this should be closed as delete as it now seems like both an NFOOTY and GNG failure. However, given the change of consensus midway through this AfD, I wonder whether some editors' comments may have been presented differently had the original rationale been fails NFOOTY, fails GNG. It seems preseumptive of a closing admin to assume they would have not.

In this instance it seems better, given that this discussion, and others, will probably shape a wider consensus, for this discussion to be closed as no consensus, but without this precluding a renomination with an updated rationale. This seems especially relevent given the majority of the keep votes were meets NFOOTY-based rather than attempting to present sources showing GNG. Fenix down (talk) 15:10, 25 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Ben Clark (footballer, born 1984)

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Not to be confused with other footballers with the same name. Our article says the Ben Clark born in 1984 played 38 ~~WP:NFOOTY~~ games in 2008–2009 in the third-tier semi professional, non-WP:FPL USL Second Division (SW lists 20 games in 2009). ~~Other than that,~~ apparently hasn't played in any WP:FPLs. Does not meet NFOOTY. Search results return no significant coverage to meet WP:GNG. Leviv ich 17:04, 7 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Update: I have updated the nomination to reflect that this article no longer meets WP:NFOOTY because USL Second Division has been removed from WP:FPL per the note below. Leviv ich 18:03, 10 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Sportspeople-related deletion discussions. Leviv ich 17:05, 7 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Football-related deletion discussions. Leviv ich 17:05, 7 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Finland-related deletion discussions. Leviv ich 17:05, 7 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of England-related deletion discussions. Leviv ich 17:05, 7 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of United States of America-related deletion discussions. Leviv ich 17:05, 7 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Massachusetts-related deletion discussions. Leviv ich 17:05, 7 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of North Carolina-related deletion discussions. Leviv ich 17:05, 7 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in WikiProject Football's list of association football-related deletions.CAPTAIN RAJU^(T) 17:16, 7 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Keep - clearly meets WP:NFOOTBALL. Needs improving, not deleting. PS it would be nice if the nominator notified article creators about AFDs... Giant Snowman 19:27, 7 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
GiantSnowman, of course I did. I use Twinkle. Leviv ich 21:06, 7 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Keep The article clearly passes the criteria of notability as stated in the Football/Fully professional leagues list. Shotgun pete 8:10, 7 April 2019 (UTC)
Wikipedia:WikiProject Football/Fully professional leagues is merely an essay, with no policy standing for notability. Icewhiz (talk) 07:24, 8 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Keep – 38 games is a clear pass of WP:NFOOTY. As to the Soccerway discrepancy, the site doesn't cover American leagues before ~2009, and thus the total of 38 is correct. 21.colinthompson (talk) 22:52, 7 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
What's the reliable source supporting 38 games? Leviv ich 23:55, 7 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
This link gives him 18 games and 1 goal, to add to the 20 games shown on Soccerway. 21.colinthompson (talk) 00:29, 8 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Keep. Twenty games would have been enough too. /Julle (talk) 00:17, 8 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Delete. nom consulted me prior to nomination. Merits of NFOOTY here are somewhat dubious as while USL Division Two was nominally professional, many players were semi-professional (holding additional jobs - several such examples can be provided). Regardless, NFOOTY merely creates a presumption of notability - a presumption that sources should exist. In this particular case - as evident in a very simple google search - there is no SIGCOV. As the presumption of GNG is being challenged here, !votes who assert NFOOTY without providing supporting sources (which should be quite easy to locate - English speaking country, most sources online in this time period) - should be disregarded.Icewhiz (talk) 06:59, 8 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Note: per consensus in Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Football/Fully professional leagues#Status of US minor leagues (concurrent to this AfD) - USL Second Division was struck from the WP:FPL essay, as it was not fully-professional. This should affect !voting based on play in USL D2. Icewhiz (talk) 07:17, 10 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
keep as a clear pass of WP:NFOOTBALL Although the article needs a lot of work, AfD is not cleanup Lubbad85 (☎) 20:30, 11 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Does it still pass NFOOTY if USL 2nd Div wasn't fully professional? Leviv ich 03:47, 12 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: Please see the comment by Icewhiz and updated nomination by Levivich. Further discussion may be needed as to whether he does indeed meet NFOOTY (and why), not to mention GNG.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Black Kite (talk) 09:18, 16 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Delete per multiple analysis described at Special:Diff/892709075. SITH (talk) 10:40, 16 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Keep, clearly meets WP:NFOOTY along with several other pages nominated by the same user. Mosaicberry (talk) 11:50, 16 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Delete, no evidence of article subject meeting WP:GNG Hack (talk) 08:54, 19 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, B dash (talk) 08:10, 24 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Comment – Recent AfDs of USL Second Division players that have been closed as delete, by four different admins: Jason Stenta, Eric Loyd, Nate Jafta, Nick Bochette. Leviv ich 06:03, 25 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.