Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Battle of Sırp Sındığı

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus. No consensus whether to keep (and improve) or merge the article. I suggest a merge discussion on the talk page to resolve the issue. (non-admin closure) (t · c) buidhe 14:27, 16 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Battle of Sırp Sındığı[edit]

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A problematic article bordering on WP:HOAX. It is very possible that this supposed battle and the Battle of Maritsa were one and the same since the Battle of Maritsa was also called "sırp sındığı" and both battles took place...on the Maritsa river. I propose this article be deleted and an explanation of the historical confusion and ambiguity be written up in the Background section of Battle of Maritsa. Amanuensis Balkanicus (talk) 00:26, 1 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

KEEP: meets MULTSOURCES and SCHOLARSHIP. Articles relies on two sources which are published by renowned printing presses (Cambridge and Chicago) The Ace in Spades (talk) 01:40, 1 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Serbia-related deletion discussions. Amanuensis Balkanicus (talk) 00:26, 1 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Turkey-related deletion discussions. Amanuensis Balkanicus (talk) 00:26, 1 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Military-related deletion discussions. Shellwood (talk) 02:29, 1 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Bulgaria-related deletion discussions. Shellwood (talk) 02:29, 1 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Hungary-related deletion discussions. Shellwood (talk) 02:29, 1 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Merge anything useful into Battle of Maritsa, though much of what is on this page is unreferenced.Mztourist (talk) 03:01, 1 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Keep Make clear this supposed battle is recorded only in the Ottoman sources and contradicts Hungarian, Serbian, papal and other European sources. Not because this battle really happened but because we will finish with the edit war on the article about the Battle of Maritsa. Sooner or later, some enthusiastic editors will change that article to accommodate this joke.

The problem is that few contemporary historians took information about this battle from the Ottoman sources. They never checked other sources. There is no way for king Louis I of Hungary to meet Emperor Charles in Bohemia, assemble the army, march to battle, lost it and go to Poland in September to discuss a crusade with other European rulers. There is no way that Bosnian heretics and Serbian schismatics march as crusaders. Only somebody who has no clue about the medieval Europe may think it is possible for an apostolic king of Hungary to be under command of a schismatic landlord. In 1364, Vukashin was not a king and co-ruler of Serbia, he was just a landlord with a title of prince or perhaps a despot.N Jordan (talk) 05:43, 1 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Speedy keep This is NOT a hoax. Sırpsındığı took place in 1364: [1] [2] [3] [4], while the Battle of Maritsa took place in 1371. Sırpsındığı is sometimes referred as "Birinci Meriç Muharebesi" (First battle of Maritsa), while Battle of Maritsa is sometimes called "İkinci Meriç Muharebesi" (Second battle of Maritsa). The second battle was a consequence of the first battle. ~Styyx ^{Talk? ^-^} 08:09, 1 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

This is a perfect example of why we should keep this article, but clearly indicate it is not recorded in any European sources. For example, on the night of the battle (September 26, 1364), king Louis I was in Krakow, as a participant of Congress of Kraków. That was a well known event in Polish and European history. We even know about a famous banquet at the house of the Kraków merchant Mikołaj Wierzynek, organized by the city council. Guillaume de Machaut wrote a poem about that. Jan Matejko created a painting: http://www.pinakoteka.zascianek.pl/Matejko/Images/Uczta_u_Wierzynka.jpg. N Jordan (talk) 18:16, 1 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Weak Keep I think we should keep this article because it is mentioned in the Ottoman sources as its own unique battle, but if the articles are merged, then it might be fine just to make mention that the Ottoman sources seem to refer to a different battle of the same name and location as a possible second battle that occurred. SacredSunflower (talk) 01:51, 3 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Merge into Battle of Maritsa anything which is of use for the project and not POV/unsourced. Sadkσ (talk is cheap) 15:09, 3 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Sandstein 09:51, 8 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.