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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep‎. Taking timestamps into account, there is a fairly clear consensus that at least by now the deletion rationale given by nom is not valid. However, some editors also indicated that delineating the precise scope of this article may require additional discussion through the usual processes on the article’s talk page. (non-admin closure) RadioactiveBoulevardier (talk) 18:18, 8 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Battle of Chasiv Yar

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Battle of Chasiv Yar (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log | edits since nomination)
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There isn't even any fighting in Chasiv Yar. WP:TOOSOON. If a battle starts there we can give it its own article, but there is no battle right now.

This is another of the many content forks of this war that keep getting deleted. See also Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Battle of Tokmak, Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Battle of Chuhuiv, Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Battle of Dvorichna, Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Battle of Krasnohorivka, Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/2024 Russian offensive. Super Ψ Dro 00:23, 25 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  • Keep. Regarding the scope of a battle, a battle does not have to be in the city itself to constitute being a battle. The Battle of Stalingrad was from 17 July 1942 to 2 February 1943, yet the Germans did not reach the city itself till late August, yet the fighting on the distant approaches to the city is considered part of the singular battle. Same applies to the battle of Bakhmut, sources recognize the battle as having began in its outskirts, before the city was even under siege, as early as July, or even May of 2022. The ISW also notes that Russian sources recognize the offensives around Bakhmut as a concentrated effort on taking Chasiv Yar. Reaper1945 (talk) 00:36, 25 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Same could apply to the battle of Kyiv, there was not any fighting within the actual city itself, but on the approaches to it, similar to the Battle of Moscow from 1941 to 1942, no fighting in the city itself but on the approaches. So limiting a battle to having to be actually in the city itself or whatever measurement to define closeness to constitute a battle is subjective and not stringently defined. Reaper1945 (talk) 00:41, 25 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
You're comparing the Russian capital, the greatest battle in history and the Ukrainian capital with a random town in Ukraine with a pre-war population of 12,250. The case of Kyiv is an exception in the topic area of this war because it was the Ukrainian capital and it was the initial phases of the war when everyone thought Ukraine was going to fall and thus we actually have sources reporting on a battle for Kyiv. I don't see such sources for Chasiv Yar.
Judging from the sources in this article there is an acknowledgment that Russia is approaching the city (Ruins and corpses among the howitzers: Russia prepares its next great siege in eastern Ukraine, Military: Ukraine partially retakes ground near Avdiivka while Russia pushes toward Chasiv Yar) but not of a "battle of Chasiv Yar" yet. May I by the way remind that the article barely has any information on a supposed battle. The article barely reflects the discussion that is taking place here. Super Ψ Dro 10:04, 31 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Most historians would consider the Battle of Stalingrad to be the greatest battle in history, such as British historian Geoffrey Roberts, and Russian sources, such as Soviet general Viktor Matsulenko, and other Russian scholars who refer to it as the "battle of the century".[1] Also, the Battle of Stalingrad is considered to have began on the distant approaches to the city, in the Don Bend, on 17 July, yet it was neither Moscow or Kyiv, both capital cities, so clearly fighting within a city is the not the definite mark of a battle. On top of that, the Battle of Bakhmut, despite the apparent main assault towards the city on 1 August, is regarded by numerous analysts at ISW as beginning in July of 2022, when Russia made advances towards the city, or even earlier in May, when fighting in the Bakhmut area actually began, yet the city is not a capital. Restricting the naming of a battle because it is not a capital or "greatest battle of all time" is not really sound logic, and the ISW analysts recognize that Russian offensives towards Chasiv Yar constitute an operation to take Chasiv Yar. Again, is there a stringent list of requirements which includes that a battle for a city must first start with fighting inside the city? Otherwise, numerous examples prove otherwise, including those above. Reaper1945 (talk) 17:50, 31 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Are there sources saying a battle has started in Chasiv Yar? Ultimately that's what matters, rather than discussing other cases. Currently the article only has sources saying russia is advancing towards the town and anticipating a battle in the future. Super Ψ Dro 20:24, 31 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Six sources given in the lede state that the "fighting", "defence" and "battle" of Chasiv Yar has already begun. Reaper1945 (talk) 13:52, 1 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Keep Salfanto (talk) 17:16, 28 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
A !vote without any comment or rationale will hardly be taken into account by the closer. Super Ψ Dro 10:04, 31 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Events-related deletion discussions. WCQuidditch ☎ ✎ 01:49, 25 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete Agree with nom that the battle hasn't actually started yet. None of the sources in English refer to this as a battle (though if someone could check the foreign sources that would be appreciated). The article claims that this source says "positional battles" were occuring around Chasiv Yar, but that is actually incorrect: the source says "positional engagements" were occuring around Chasiv Yar. Until the actual battle starts, this is, as nom said, WP:TOOSOON. Gödel2200 (talk) 13:32, 25 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Weak keep I'd normally be all for deleting the article, however, the actual article on Chasiv Yar is really slanted (to be honest, mostly due to my contributions) because there isn't really any other place for info on Chasiv Yar in the war to live. If we where to migrate all the stuff in the Chasiv Yar Russin invasion section to a background section then I'd think we'd have enough to keep this article afloat. I don't think Ukraine is going to be making a push for Bakhmut anytime soon (I'd love to be proven wrong) and it is far more likely that Russia is just going to intensify it's attacks in the Donbas in the near future. Scu ba (talk) 01:29, 26 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
WP:CRYSTALBALL. Currently there is no battle in Chasiv Yar, so we can simply not have an article on it. As I said, we can create an article if a battle erupts in the future (maybe draftifying this article could be an option if editors deem a battle to start soon as likely). The information here can be easily integrated at Chasiv Yar#Russian invasion of Ukraine so that no information is lost. Super Ψ Dro 20:37, 26 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
A battle does not have to take place in the city itself to constitute a battle, again, this would apply to the battle of Kyiv or Battle of Moscow which saw no fighting within the cities themselves. Reaper1945 (talk) 01:03, 27 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
the March 26 ISW report mentions fighting within city limits. Scu ba (talk) 15:17, 27 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Geolocated footage published on March 24 indicates that Russian forces marginally advanced northeast of Kanal (an eastern suburb of Chasiv Yar). Nothing about fighting inside the city. Super Ψ Dro 10:04, 31 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Keep. Per Reaper1945 Durranistan (talk) 16:10, 27 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Draftify- it isn't clear that the battle has begun yet and we can't be sure that there will be a "Battle of Chasiv Yar" in the future (assuming that there will be is WP:CRYSTALBALL)- however, many sources do mention advances towards Chasiv Yar, so it'd be best to leave it as a draft to be expanded and reworked until sources start speaking of an actual battle there.
Some have mentioned the fact that it's not necessary for there to be fighting in the city limits for there to be a battle of that city (e.g. Moscow, Kyiv), but those offensives were major and are universally deemed a battle in themselves, while the apparent Russian advance to Chasiv Yar appears to be... just that, an apparent Russian advance on the town. Doesn't really constitute a full battle yet - presidentofyes, the super aussa man 20:58, 27 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Keep, with name Chasiv Yar during the Russian invasion of Ukraine.Mr.User200 (talk) 14:23, 29 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
An article like that seems like it would be easily integrable into Chasiv Yar#Russian invasion of Ukraine, given this article's short length. This would also be an unprecedented format of article. Super Ψ Dro 19:53, 29 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
How do you know there is no fighting there? Eehuiio (talk) 21:44, 29 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Because there is no proof for now that Russian forces reached at least eastern outskirts of the city, the front line is now close to the city but not in the city itself. Hyfdghg (talk) 03:20, 30 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The burden of proof is on anyone arguing there is a battle taking place in the city right now, not on the opposite side. Super Ψ Dro 10:04, 31 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep but rename to Chasiv Yar in the Russian invasion of Ukraine. RS does back up that Chasiv Yar is being targetted ([1][2]), however, RS also supports that there is no direct confrontation in Chasiv Yar nor any attacks/airstrikes. Chasiv Yar is an administrative center for the Chasiv Yar urban hromada, so my !vote for keeping and renaming the article supports that information pretaining to the Chasiv Yar urban hromada's four settlements are included in the article. I do agree that a "Battle of Chasiv Yar" article is WP:TOOSOON, however, deletion is not necessary due to RS support that Chasiv Yar is a current objective in the invasion. Note, my !vote should not be prejudice against a future "Battle of Chasiv Yar" article (i.e. a future renaming of this article to the current title) if and/or when combat begins to take place in the city. The Weather Event Writer (Talk Page) 18:02, 31 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    @WeatherWriter There actually have been artillery and air attacks on Chasiv Yar. On 17 February 2024, Russians dropped an ODAB-1500 thermobaric bomb on defending positions in Chasiv Yar,[2][3] and shelling reported on 2 December 2023[4] and 9 March 2024.[5] Sources also mention that Rusaian forces are within a couple miles of the city, extremely close and pushing towards the city. Reaper1945 (talk) 18:30, 31 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Reaper1945: Even then, that just supports my !vote. Pushing towards the city does not imply a "battle" has taken place or is currently taking place. The bombing references above just support that the article should not be deleted, but rather (most likely temporarily) be renamed to not include "battle" in the title. It can be renamed back to "battle of" once fighting begins to take place army vs army in the city itself. The Weather Event Writer (Talk Page) 19:07, 31 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@WeatherWriter Settlements in the Chasiv Yar urban hromada have been attacked and stormed, such as Bohdanivka, and Ivanivske, which is immediately east of Chasiv Yar has been captured by Russian forces on 23 March. I do not see how fighting on the outskirts of a city does not constitute a battle? Analysts at ISW and Kyiv Independent reporters clearly view the Battle of Bakhmut beginning on its outskirts when its settlements were attacked and Russian forces pushed towards the city, despite no fighting within the city yet, how can the same not be said for Chasiv Yar? Reaper1945 (talk) 19:22, 31 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Reaper1945 Have ISW or any other analysts assessed that the Battle of Chasiv Yar has begun? If not, then who are we to be the first to make that assessment? Regards, SaintPaulOfTarsus (talk) 00:21, 6 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@SaintPaulOfTarsus See @Zerbrxsler response down below, think he covers it quite well. Reaper1945 (talk) 00:27, 6 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Reaper1945: It concerns me that Zerbrxsler seems to have independently come to the conclusion that the Battle of Chasiv Yar has begun. This would appear to be an extrapolation that isn't directly stated in any of the sources linked in the user's comment. I also don't think the reasoning that fighting in the outskirts of the city definitely makes it eligible to have its own article holds true; there are many Ukrainian cities of equal and larger population for which this principle has not applied. Regards, SaintPaulOfTarsus (talk) 01:00, 6 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@SaintPaulOfTarsus I did, in fact, not come to this conclusion independently. I base it on reliable news reports and expert opinions, for example AFP: "Ukraine Faces Key Battle In Chasiv Yar"[6]; Courthouse News Service: "Russian forces move on Chasiv Yar, new battleground in intensifying Ukraine war"[7]; TSN.ua: "The Russians have entered the important heights of Chasiv Yar".[8] Greetings, Zerbrxsler (talk) 19:01, 6 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you, Zerbrxsler. I fail to see how those sources demonstrate that the Battle of Chasiv Yar has begun. On the contrary, the below quote from an article you shared (Courthouse News) would imply that any battle has yet to begin and remains a speculative concept:

With Russian soldiers slowly advancing on Chasiv Yar from the east and the south, the heavily fortified city looks set to become the next big battle over eastern Ukraine's Donbas region

Additionally, the title of the Barron's/AFP article, Ukraine Faces Key Battle in Chasiv Yar seems to suggest that a battle is upcoming rather than ongoing, in the sense of "face" as "to have in prospect" (Wiktionary). My best regards SaintPaulOfTarsus (talk) 19:27, 6 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@SaintPaulOfTarsus In my eyes this is a semantics discussion. "{...} set to become the next big battle {...}", "set" is a hard word. It is something determined, or even already actively set. This can't be denied, the same with "Ukraine faces key battle {...}", "faces" is an active form of "to face", facing, meaning it's active. This is irrelevant now because the Battle of Chasiv Yar was directly called by Euromaidan Press: "Russian forces conducted a series of powerful mechanized assaults and officially started their next great battle – the Battle for Chasiv Yar."[9] and Frankfurter Rundschau: "Battle for Chasiv Yar: Ukraine wants to block the “door to Donbass”.".[10] Greetings, Zerbrxsler (talk) 11:43, 7 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Keep a battle has begun in the outskirts of chasiv yar Lukt64 (talk) 16:33, 8 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ Исаакович, Цветков Анатолий; Александрович, Борщ Александр (2018). "СТАЛИНГРАДСКАЯ БИТВА - СРАЖЕНИЕ ВЕКА (К 75-ЛЕТИЮ РАЗГРОМА НЕМЕЦКО-ФАШИСТСКИХ ВОЙСК ПОД СТАЛИНГРАДОМ)". Научно-аналитический журнал Обозреватель - Observer (1 (336)): 111–119. ISSN 2074-2975.
  2. ^ Ситников, Александр (2024-02-19). "О начале битвы за Часов Яр известил эпический «почти ядерный» взрыв". svpressa.ru (in Russian). Retrieved 2024-03-31.
  3. ^ Shcherbak, Svetlana (2024-03-30). "Was the ODAB-1500 Aviation Bomb Used by the Enemy for the First Time: What Is Its Main Danger?". en.defence-ua.com. Retrieved 2024-03-31.
  4. ^ Presse, AFP-Agence France (2023-12-02). "Russian Shelling Kills One In Ukraine's Chasiv Yar: Kyiv". www.barrons.com. Retrieved 2024-03-31.
  5. ^ "Russians shell Chasiv Yar, killing a man". www.pravda.com.ua. 2024-03-09. Retrieved 2024-03-31.
  6. ^ https://www.barrons.com/news/ukraine-faces-key-battle-in-chasiv-yar-a-door-to-donbas-1b3d6918
  7. ^ https://www.courthousenews.com/russian-forces-move-on-chasiv-yar-new-battleground-in-intensifying-ukraine-war/
  8. ^ https://tsn.ua/en/ato/the-russians-have-entered-the-important-heights-of-chasiv-yar-co-founder-of-deepstate-explains-why-this-is-dangerous-2548711.html
  9. ^ http://web.archive.org/web/20240407112153/https://euromaidanpress.com/2024/04/07/frontline-report-ukrainian-troops-in-chasiv-yar-face-extensive-bombing-and-numerous-attacks/
  10. ^ http://web.archive.org/web/20240407112420/https://www.fr.de/politik/ukraine-krieg-kampf-tschassiw-jar-russland-tuer-donbass-kramatorsk-slowjansk-92990612.html

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: I don't see a consensus here yet. Please work to give policy-based opinions on what should happen with this article. Thank you.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Liz Read! Talk! 04:28, 1 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  • Delete A brief google search of "battle of chasiv yar" gives few results of such a thing existing, with very few mainstream sources. In my humble opinion, it would be better to write about this is a "post- battle of Bakmutt" framework rather than a distinct entity. For instance, as part of the "eastern front" of ukraine, after bakmutts fall, several villages fell after prolonged shelling and skirmishes, including chasiv yar. While I have no doubt many people have died in chasiv yar and much has been blown up, its not noteworthy enough (unlike mauripol, avdidivka, bakmutt). That could change o course, but for now delete.2605:A601:5553:B000:F5AC:CA05:A342:E541 (talk) 19:35, 4 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Obviously keep. By now, it's too late to delete this article. As of today, it was confirmed that Russian forces entered the city and there is already fighting inside city boundaries (check the ISW map). Alexis Coutinho (talk) 20:58, 4 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Weak keep In respect to WP:CRYSTALBALL and WP:TOOSOON, this article maybe, probably, was made about a week or two too soon in retrospect. But as of the 4th and 5th of April, an increasing amount of news articles and RS are now mentioning clashes on the outskirts of, or even inside Chasiv Yar's administrative borders, and the Ukrainian command are now (publicly) saying the situation is deteriorating and at least becoming "tense". So, I am inclined to vote for keeping it at this point. And considering the Russians currently have the offensive initiative in the war (regardless of casualties) I personally do not expect or predict they will suddenly stop assaulting the city on their own after today, but will keep pushing and urban clashes will escalate, so the battle can be considered to have begun by at least today's date. Now, the EXACT date it began, that is still up for debate, assuming the article is even kept up after the discussions here.
Additionally, for the record, I am of the group of editors that believes the battle for a city can be considered to have begun before ground troops actually physically cross the city's administrative borders. A battle for a specific settlement can begin on the outskirts and on the approach towards it, before enemy troops actually physically enter said settlement, especially if the objectives and aims of the advance can be reasonably gleamed by general observers, even without any official government/military statements regarding specific objectives. I believe there's historical precedent for this as well, no? I believe other editors have provided examples above, if I'm not mistaken. RopeTricks (talk) 17:29, 5 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep. ISW,[1] Spatial Grounds (formerly MilitaryLand.net),[2] Deepstate,[3] UA Control Map (Project Owl OSINT)[4][5] all reported fighting on the outskirts. Fighting on the outskirts of the city definitely makes it eligible to have its own article, even if Russians only manage to contest just a bit of the city. There are reports that the mayor takes drastic evacuation efforts to get the civilians out. NPR: "Russia closes in {on Chasiv Yar}".[6] Russia took the strategic initiative and is on the offensive towards the city. There are strong indicators that this city is a target of the Russian Armed Forces, RFE/RFL: "Russian troops have been targeting Chasiv Yar";[7] so intent is also proved, besides presence. The Battle of Chasiv Yar has begun, it is out of question. Zerbrxsler (talk) 20:47, 5 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I don't think there's any dispute that there is conflict and war in Chasiv Yar. The question (imho) is whether or not the conflict and war there is noteworthy enough to constitute a battle, such as bakmutt, avdiivka, mauripol, kiev etc. Keep in mind that there are dozens of ukranian villages and towns along the frontline under constant bombing, artillery drone and skirmish threat. Do each and every one deserve a "battle?" A brief google search for "battle of chasiv yar" gives very few results and almost none from noteworthy sources. Everything thats happening there could be summarized in the main chasiv yar page or the ukranian war eastern theatre page. For instance, you could just write something to the effect "chasiv yar was under continuous bombing and artillery for a year after the fall of bakmutt, and on May 15th 2024 Russia occupied the city." 2605:A601:5553:B000:7426:D438:CEDE:E180 (talk) 21:05, 6 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@2605:A601:5553:B000:7426:D438:CEDE:E180 It was just called by Euromaidan Press: "Russian forces conducted a series of powerful mechanized assaults and officially started their next great battle – the Battle for Chasiv Yar."[8] and Frankfurter Rundschau: "Battle for Chasiv Yar: Ukraine wants to block the “door to Donbass”.".[9] Greetings, Zerbrxsler (talk) 12:03, 7 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yes that's a step in the right direction. Hopefully we'll see more mainstream sources in the near future.
"battle of avdiivka" - 92500
"battle of bakhmut" - 90000
"battle of chasiv yar" - 18000 2605:A601:5553:B000:3097:E273:F245:AED0 (talk) 13:49, 7 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
  1. ^ https://www.iswresearch.org/2024/04/russian-offensive-campaign-assessment_4.html?m=1
  2. ^ https://twitter.com/spatialgrounds/status/1775957664897327153
  3. ^ https://deepstatemap.live/en#14/48.5863/37.8569
  4. ^ https://twitter.com/UAControlMap/status/1776015229647737265
  5. ^ https://uacontrolmap.com
  6. ^ https://www.npr.org/2024/04/04/1241616363/russia-ukraine-war-chasiv-yar
  7. ^ https://www.rferl.org/a/russia-advances-ukraine-chasiv-yar-drones/32892146.html
  8. ^ http://web.archive.org/web/20240407112153/https://euromaidanpress.com/2024/04/07/frontline-report-ukrainian-troops-in-chasiv-yar-face-extensive-bombing-and-numerous-attacks/
  9. ^ http://web.archive.org/web/20240407112420/https://www.fr.de/politik/ukraine-krieg-kampf-tschassiw-jar-russland-tuer-donbass-kramatorsk-slowjansk-92990612.html
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