Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Barbara Schwarz

This page is an archive of the proposed deletion of the article below. Further comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or on a Votes for Undeletion nomination). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result of the debate was Keep Zscout370 (Sound Off) 21:05, 3 September 2005 (UTC)

Barbara Schwarz

• The article still is an outrage and so are the many lying and hostile Wikipedia "contributers"
  • I knew that this stupid article would result in lots of work for me, just because some people just can't leave me alone. I constantly have to go back to the painful times in my life and suffer again through it, in which I was abused as certain people like Tilman get a kick out of it to bring that stuff up again.
  • Here is my contradiction:

Barbara Schwarz, neé Bretschneider,

• • Where is the proof that I am a nee Bretschneider?

is a German expatriate

• • Where is the proof that I am a German expatriate?

Barbara, you lived in Germany and now live in the US. By most people's definition of the term, you are an expatriate. Of course, since you claim to have been born in the US, you won't ACCEPT any proof of that sort. 206.114.20.121 22:17, 2 September 2005 (UTC)

now living in Salt Lake City, Utah. She was the president of the German branch of the Church of Scientology from August 3, 1983 until July 10, 1984. [1]. Schwarz is no longer active in the Church of Scientology (she states that she was "kicked out" in 1984).

• • • I wrote I was kicked out by a non-scientological infiltrator, a friend of Tilman Hausherr with name of Brigitta Harrington. She was NO Scientologist. She left Scientology right after she kicked me illegally out. She is an enemy of Scientology. As is it was said, when an Al Queda guy kicks a Jew out of a Synagoge, is that Jew no member of the Jewish religion anymore? I posted over and over that the Church of Scientology asked me several times to come back.

Moreover, what is to make of these many ARS postings that claim that I would work for the Org Special Unit or those that saw me entering the Church of Scientology in Salt Lake? For anybody's info: as soon I have more time, I will be back in the C of S, which only the non-scientologicial infiltrators will not appreciate. So, why is that not in the article? Despite this fact, Barbara still considers herself a Scientologist, if no longer officially a member of the Church.

• • • That is not true, and bad grammar. I never resigned and I never was excommunicated, for heavens sake. I am also a lifetime member of the International Association for Scientologists. The number is 12182 038 0003 8519. Check with them and ask them also what they think if the biased Wikipedia article on L. Ron Hubbard and Scientology.

Schwarz is also known as the current holder of the record for most requests filed by a single individual under the Freedom of Information Act.

• • • Prove that some reporters did not file more.

According to the Salt Lake Tribune, Schwarz has submitted thousands of FOIA requests to the United States Government

• • • You should order the logs of all federal agencies and check how often my name appears on their FOIA logs from 1998 through 2001, the years in which I filed FOIA requests. I bet a Million Dollars with you that just a few hundreds FOIA requests of mine are recorded in those logs. If Wikipedia wants to publish an article about me, their contributors have to make real research and not just allow Scientology haters to put lies on their site.

and followed these up with dozens of lawsuits against thousands of federal employees. Many of these attempt to substantiate her claims that she is the granddaughter of President Dwight D. Eisenhower and the daughter of Church of Scientology founder L. Ron Hubbard, that she grew up on a secret submarine base on the Great Salt Lake, and that her husband Mark (aka Marty) Rathbun was wrongfully arrested in Madrid, Spain, in 1988 and taken to the United States, where he is secretly being held.

• • • I posted over and over that I did not grow up in a secret submarine base but was kidnapped to Germany. Prove that I said I grew up in such a base.
    • As far as my law suits are concerned, they were about that the federal workers conducted no lawful searches to my FOIA requests.

Part 1: Barbara Schwarz about Barbara Schwarz litigation against the infiltrated U.S. government http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=a6bc00a0.0301071056.47d7b787%40p... Part 2: Barbara Schwarz about Barbara Schwarz litigation against the infiltrated U.S. government http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=a6bc00a0.0301080937.558b97c8%40p... Part 3: Barbara Schwarz about Barbara Schwarz litigation against the infiltrated U.S. government http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=a6bc00a0.0301090958.d33750b%40po... Part 4: Barbara Schwarz about Barbara Schwarz litigation against the infiltrated U.S. government http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=a6bc00a0.0301100853.7190db4f%40p... Part 6: Barbara Schwarz about Barbara Schwarz litigation against the U.S. government http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=a6bc00a0.0301110955.4368523a%40p... [edit] Usenet history Besides her frequent FOIA requests, Schwarz posts regularly to the Usenet newsgroup alt.religion.scientology.

• • • Because the anti-Scientologists libeled me before I ever posted there. When I leave they become even worse with lies and forgeries. They are criminals.

Her posts are sometimes defensive of the Church of Scientology,

• • • I don't defend the Church of Scientology. I correct the lies about the religion Scientology and L. Ron Hubbard. Tilman's (who works for German secret service OPC) purpose is to portray me wrongfully as confused or mentally ill person. He doesn't know me, and that is his problem. His secret service has greatest interest in him and others spreading lies about me.

but other times she insists that while the church's "technology" (scripture) works, the current hierarchy of the church is corrupt, due to infiltration.

• • • I never said that any hierarchy of the church is/was corrupt, but I indeed made the personal experience that the Scientology organizations are infiltrated by non-Scientologists. The German branch even filed a law suit against Tilman's secret service to make them pull their agents out, which they didn't.

Other posts have recounted her travels during the 1980s and how she was arrested on various occasions, including for illegally entering the White House, and twice confined to a mental health hospital in the U.S. and once in Germany. [2] [3] [4] [5]

• • • Arrested for "various occasions"? Tilman just want to make me look bad and cover up that German secret service are not just watching Scientologists illegally but also plotting against them and denying them their human rights. The U.S. Department of State mentions Germany every year in their Human Rights report because of the abuses against Scientology.

http://groups.google.com/group/alt.religion.scientology/msg/3993e8eaa959e78d?hl=en& http://www.verfassungsschutz.de/de/arbeitsfelder/af_scientology/

• • • The Germans are crazy, they still have their Nazi boots on, allowed Atta and his cell to plot Sept. 11 while they were and still are occupied to spy and plot against harmless Scientologists.
    • I never entered illegally in the White House. I never committed any crime, except having had no food for 14 days and taking nectarines worth five bucks with the intention to pay them back. All cases against me were indeed plotted. Read for yourself what happened to me in my 92 parts series, which is a draft only, but correct in details.
    • Why are the crimes by the German government against me concealed in the article? For the sake of arguments, let say for a moment that I am crazy. But how come the German government who started to constantly pull the rug out from underneath my feet, is not accused of having caused that? Tilman protects his fanatical government. I was lied to by with the German's co-conspiring police that I am needed as witness in Germany. At the border I was told that I was arrested, but they had no charges against me. I saw a judge who denied to me any contact to an attorney despite the German law says everybody arrested has a right to an attorney.

He told me that I am arrested because I tried to intimidate Klaus Karbe, an ex-official in Germany, in a phone conversation to call off an international event to introduce "deprogramming" to Europe. (Deprogramming is the cruel procedure of breaking somebody's belief with all kinds of criminal methods.) Read about the father of deprogramming here: http://www.parishioners.org/false_exp/patrick1.html The German district attorney Juergen Keltsch made the charges up after my arrest, and German police transported me in deliberately too tight handcuffs for at least eight hours in a train through Germany. I was beaten by German police, and when I became upset they lied that I am crazy and stuffed me in a mental institution where I had to sit for eight months because they tried to "deprogram me" from Scientology because they wanted a former President to attack Scientology. The German psychiatrists from hell messed my kidneys up with who knows what was in those injections. My kidneys became hard and painful. Tilman's friend Ingo Heinemann was very much involved in that process, and this fanatical man even wanted to become my "guardian"! I was not allowed to talk to any attorney over many weeks, and the German government plotted behind my back with the judges, and they issued one degree after the other against me without that I had any chance to defend myself against it. What a "fine" country Tilman works for, and I did not just claim that the SEGNPMSS was involved but also the OPC for which Tilman Hausherr and his good friend Ursula Caberta works. The case against me was dismiss years later, I was wrongfully arrested for such a long time. And - two years later, I was kidnapped by three deprogrammers and badly hurt in an attempt to flee. Isn't that an irony? I protested against it, and the government kidnapped me from Copenhagen to penalize me for that, and then I become the victim of what I protested against! Furthermore why is nowhere in the article that a Police Officer and a U.S. Marshall broke my arm twice without provocation, during these "arrests" in Washington, that they took my $ 2000, threw me in the streets at night, etc? And when I protested that, they lied that I am crazy and need to see a psych. What a rotten world it is and what a lousy article that Wikipedia article about me is. Everything but how it really was. If Wikipedia wants to write an article about me then write a true one, and not a German OPC organized and approved article that sweeps all their organized crimes against me under the carpet.

 Barbara Schwarz

• Shovel the article, is my vote. I am Barbara Schwarz. Wikipedia

is a piece of junk. I can't force anybody here to write a truthful and factual article about me, but I certainly can spread the word that Wikipedia allows gangs as Alt.Religion.Scientology (ARS)to defame and libel and portray people in false light on their website, people who delete any neutral and correct data, and I am tired to waste my time on this Mickey Mouse encyclopedia, founded by pornographer Jimbo Wales. Who believes the articles on Wikipedia has a major IQ problem. First of all, Wikipedia board and administrators should study the laws before they allow discrimination and libel on the Wikipedia webpage. When a local paper writes about a person, when that person posts on Usenet that does not make her to a public figure. You should clear the legal definition of it before. I am no public figure per legal definition. Tilman Hausherr, who wrote most of that article and controls it like a lunatic, is an enemy of the USA, wants to hurt the American tourism and wants to blame it on Scientology. He posted at least 24.000 hate messages on Usenet. He deletes any truthful information about himself and is supported by ARS gang members and dishonest Wikipedia administrators. Yes, I am a Scientologist and not Scientology threw me out, but one of Tilman's and the other extremists' friend, Birgitta Harrington a non-scientological infiltrator. You need to be "SP declared" in order to be not more considered a Scientologist. But lets say, all of Scientology would be in the hand of Tilman and the secret service he works for, and they would indeed lie that I am no Scientologist anymore: I still would be one per definition of L. Ron Hubbard who stated that a Scientologist is one who applies the technology of Scientology. Tilman, like the others, claims to be an expert on Scientology, and posted approx. 24000 hate articles against it on the net, but he and his friends are absolutely clueless. They are responsible for having written the L. Ron Hubbard and Scientology section, and that one sucks too. It is full of lies and false information. "Fine" encyclopedia is is! Also in this vote section, ARS anti-religious extremists lie and accuse me of what they are doing. I referred often to this website, which is on the net since several years and never was sued by this gang as the data provided is not false. http://www.religiousfreedomwatch.org/extremists/index.html See also how many documents are on that site, but as soon somebody provides a link to the documents on that site, the entry is overwritten. "Fine" neutrality it is. I don't libel anybody, I hate defamation and lies. I never wanted to post on Usenet, but I was defamed even before I posted. One day I had enough and just wanted to keep the records straight. The result: I was even more defamed and had not much other choice then to stay present and correct the lies about me. Most people who post here did not even read what I posted in the talk page. Their postings reveal that they are completely clueless. How can they make an informed decision when they are so biased that they don't even want to know the facts? I don't repeat what I wrote already in the talk page. Wikipedia and the gangs who post here are wasting my time and I will hold not just the individual posters but also Wikipedia legally responsible for webbing an article about me that portrays me wrongfully. Some of the information provided below is Garry Lynn Scarff. He is a forger and death threat maker, and you just have to google his name to find the details on him. He filed false complaints. I never. Google also William Charles Barwell to find what lying bastard he is. The there is the Desertphile poster, who is Dave Rice, who described himself as Prozac filled gay terrorist psycho, took GPS readings of Scientology orgs and called them target data. He suggested in a posting to kill members of the FBI and he and his brother put a plan on the web in which they revealed that they want to "deprogram" Scientologists by applying sexual abuse. His kook bother Frederic is the lunatic who put the "kook award" crap on the page. These are the few intoxicated kooks who voted (several times) to "award" me, but Wikipedia doesn't get it and degrades it's pages by allowing that kind of garbage in an article. http://groups.google.com/group/alt.religion.scientology/browse_thread/thread/54ef1b7f6b03bb0f/f36f44c3060f5731?lnk=st&q=Frederic+rice%2Bdeprogramming&rnum=1&hl=en#f36f44c3060f5731 Frederic recently made the text on his plan on his website illegible, because I complained about it. Lily, who goes out of her way to describe me as "unimportant" to the world, is also wrong. E.g., I documented through my FOIA requests and law suits that the U.S. government is infiltrated by non-American forces and conspires against citizens. Wonder what her great accomplishments in saving the world are. I explained that the Tribune article is false. Why do you think reporter Chris Smith did not want to talk to the First Amendment Center reporter about it? Read below. Because he has a bad conscience as his article is full of lies and portrays me and my actions deliberately in a false light. http://www.firstamendmentcenter.org/news.aspx?id=15428 I posted already about the "credibility" of the Salt Lake Tribune. http://www.slweekly.com/editorial/2003/feat_2003-05-08.cfm http://www.slweekly.com//editorial/2004/city_2_2004-10-28.cfm http://tv.ksl.com/index.php?nid=5&sid=38041 http://www.ajr.org/Article.asp?id=3077 http://www.ajr.org/Article.asp?id=3036 The state court judges who kicked my case out are corrupt. They ignored all laws on my side. It is a shame that such people sit on the bench. And do you know below statement of Professor Freedman? He is right, and not just federal judges but also state judges apply no or false legal standards as I can say out of my own bitter experience with both kind of courts. Abuses by courts are known to the nonprofit organization "A Matter of Justice" ("AMOJ") and they try to hold judges accountable for their corrupt actions. [email protected] posted following recently on the Internet: "Hofstra Law Professor Monroe Freedman said this recently to a conference of federal judges: 'Frankly, I have had more than enough of judicial opinions that bear no relationship whatsoever to the cases that have been filed and argued before the judges. I am talking about judicial opinions that falsify the facts of the cases that have been argued, judicial opinions that falsify the facts of cases that have been argued, judicial opinions that make disingenuous use of omission of material authorities, judicial opinion that cover up things with no publication and no citation-rules.' Afterwards, when Professor Freedman sat down, a judge sitting next to him turning to him and said: 'You don't know half of it.' (Suggesting even more serious implication than the alleged statement by Professor Freedman.) I explained what kind of records I requested from the government and had many of them. I don't owe the government any money. They fabricated $303.30 as they did not want to process FOIA requests. Even the Tribune reporter wrote to me that they are lazy and don't want to work. As many of what I write on Wikipedia is constantly deleted by the anti-religious ARS gang, I will mail this article to the Wikipedia Board, the Information Team, Usenet and several websites. I am sick and tired of criminal people lying about that I do what they do. Barbara Schwarz non-notable, non-encyclopedic 198.93.113.49 14:29, 30 August 2005 (UTC)

• keep totally notable! Brighterorange 14:43, 30 August 2005 (UTC)
  • Why? Because she posts to usenet?--198.93.113.49 14:53, 30 August 2005 (UTC)
    • Because of the things listed in the article. I had heard about her before seeing this VfD, even. Brighterorange 18:46, 30 August 2005 (UTC)
• keep I've never heard of her but there is plenty of google presence and a few Salt Lake newspaper articles on her HoratioVitero 15:29, 30 August 2005 (UTC)
• Delete article being used for propaganda, not notable
• Keep What is "non-encyclopedic", by the way?. 212.101.64.4 15:33, 30 August 2005 (UTC)
  • It takes more than being a prolific usenet kook to make someone encyclopedic. There are thousands of crazy people posting to usenet and yes some of them are crazy enough to make the local paper every once in while. Doesn't make them notable.--
    • • • • I read a lot about her since the Wikipedia article and I came to the conclusion that she is defamed but no kook. Her life is too complicated. A book needs to be written on her, not a misleading Wikipedia article. Vote: delete article. Signed: a Mormon.
• Keep I just happened upon her while researching FOIA requests. Utah Court of Appeals ruled against her and evidence presented supports the Wikipedia article, here is a link to the article [1] Barbara is a notable figure in various courts throughout the United States and her contibution should be noted here. --Frankcoop 10:25, 31 August 2005 (UTC)

198.93.113.49 15:48, 30 August 2005 (UTC)

• • • That doesn't answer my question. anyway, there are hundreds of articles in any encyclodaedia on subjects of which I've never heard and in which I have little or no interest. I don't demand that the pages be torn out, however. Perhaps the article on the lady will be of use/interest to someone else. 212.101.64.4 15:58, 30 August 2005 (UTC)
      • It may help both of you to read our Wikipedia:criteria for inclusion of biographies and to discuss which of those criteria this person satisfies. Uncle G 16:32:17, 2005-08-30 (UTC)
        • She satisfies the google test, with over 13000 hits :-) Tilman 16:57, 30 August 2005 (UTC)Tilman
          • You haven't applied the Google Test thoroughly enough. It is not enough merely to count the hits. It is important to see what the hits actually are. Uncle G 18:57:51, 2005-08-30 (UTC)
            • Here's a more narrow google search for her, with the keyword FOIA. [2] Tilman 19:54, 30 August 2005 (UTC)Tilman
• keep She's a celebrity in the FOIA scene. (Read the article in the Salt Lake Tribune [3]). About a deletion, ask youself "cui bono"? Barbara doesn't like the article, like she didn't like the Tribune article, which was also fair.
  • • • • I read what the First Amendment Center (who has noteable judges in its board) wrote about her. The Tribune reporter denied information to the First Amendment Center. That is very odd. The Tribune was in a lot of hot water in Utah. Even the family of the governor protested against their shaby and biased reporting. The Desert News is a much better paper. Signed a Mormon

Another party who would profit from a deletion would be the scientology Organisation - a person like Barbara isn't exactly good PR. Tilman 16:19, 30 August 2005 (UTC)Tilman

• • If I would be no good PR for Scientology, Tilman would not lie that I am no Scientologist anymore. The entire article portrays me in a false light. I am nothing as he, his friends or the Tribune describes. The Tribune is known for unfair reporting. Some of their reporters sold lies about the Elizabeth Smart family to the National Enquirer for $ 20.000. Go to the talk page of my Wikipedia article and click on the links that I provided. Remember Jayson Blair from the New York Times? He fabricated just as Christopher Smith of the Tribune did. Wikipedia should not entertain articles that show people in a false light. Take it off or put one up that is truthfully. And don't use yellow journalism as your guide. Barbara Schwarz — Preceding unsigned comment added by 205.127.246.152 (talk • contribs) 2005-08-30 16:44:28 UTC (UTC)
    • Barbara, you wrote yourself several times that you were kicked out of scientology in 1984. You can't have it both ways. Tilman 17:15, 30 August 2005 (UTC)Tilman
      • I explained it to Tilman before, but he does not want to enlargen his horizont. Only people who are officially excommunicated are no longer people within their religion. If a LDS bishop tells somebody to leave the ward for unruly behavior, that person is not excommunicated and still a Mormon.

Ms. Schwarz wrote that other people than Scientologists infiltrated the church and outed her but that Scientology wants her to come back. I wish she would join LDS, but she indeed is a Scientologist when she seens herself as such and was never excommunicated. Signed a mormon.

• Keep Very notable in the FOIA scene. Also notable in that she is a major player in the Alt.Relgion.Scientology scene, which is clearly a point of interest given that A.R.S. also has its own entry. She is a curious facet of our modern times, and many, many internet denizens know of her and refer to her, which would cause others to seek her out on Wikipedia. There is no good reason to delete this page; unless you are Scientology, or Barbara Schwarz. Databind() 20:04, 30 August 2005 (UTC)
  • Delete as the article is not fair. Tilman wants her to look like a nut when she indeed is highly intelligent. As more you read of her as more you get that she really is just hated because she is speaking up against opponents of Scientology.
• Keep Schwarz's detailed delusional fantasies are amazing. But her incredible efforts to prove them via massive abuse of the FOIA with numerous govenment agancies and massive numbers of lawsuits, all argued pro se and all lost, sets her far apart from mere net kooks. That alone would make her newsworthy. She is now actively posting in alt.religion.scientology and brought her hyperactivity with her, and became a willing conduit of Scientology misinformation, libel and harassment. Only the Saltlake, Utah library's cutting of hours allowed on a computer there slowed her down.

She shows no signs of slowing down or going away on her own. Only lack of money and large debt to the US government over her FOIA bombings of hundreds of agencies keeps her from continuing her career as the most prolific kook of all time in regards to computerized abuse of the FOIA statutes. This bears watching, as does her penchant for lawsuits, slowed down only because of lack of money.
Wbarwell— Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.39.197.170 (talk • contribs) 2005-08-30 17:01:03 UTC (UTC)

• keep The web page in question is 100% factual (according to Ms. Schwarz herself), and I cannot see any non-neutral "bias" in it. I do not see anything objectionable. -- Desertphile — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.82.9.49 (talk • contribs) 2005-08-30 17:05:37 UTC (UTC)
• Keep Her FOIA status and her activity on ARS need references on the web. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.35.184.200 (talk • contribs) 2005-08-30 17:04:11 UTC (UTC)
• Keep Ms Schwarz has made herself notable through her excessive FOIA actions and her extreme record of Internet abuse. Ms Schwarz craves, even demands, notoriety, but only on her own terms and only when the information is provided by such an unimpeachable source such as herself. This article should be retained to document her notoriety and abuse. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.133.254.34 (talk • contribs) 2005-08-30 17:16:36 UTC (UTC)
• delete Several reasons: She is of no importance for the world. She is not a celebrity. She is mainly defamed in that article and that is what bothers me the most. An article like this, where a common person is just ridiculed, defamed and fingerpointed (I tried to reveal the reasons and some background info on the discussion page, please watch out there) is not a good reputation for the encyclopedia of the Internet community. Barbara Schwarz is a very, very common name in german speaking countries. The google-test is not fullfilled. There are already 2 Barbara Schwarz in my city's phone book! - - - Her belief is very important for her, she identifies with it. She is a dedicated and convinced scientologist, but the article does not allow to add this important information about her. The article seems to be written by scientologists, who feel ashamed of a person posing like her, but want to abuse her to check out the possibilities of further abuse of wikipedia to harass, defame and discredit people. The article is neither neutral nor justifiable and of interest only for people, who find freaks entertaining. But since she for herself finds the article not correct, we all should respect that and forget about religion. Maybe she in fact is mentally insane, I do not know. If so - it is worse, what is done to her. I can not support that, although I understand, that she can be really entertaining. - - - Please, community, let us demonstrate, that we are honestly trying our best to respect individuals, no matter of which belief (I am a critic of scientology and she is a scientologist, I would fight with her about that, but I will fight for her dignitiy as a human being as well) and don't we become part of a world, where people are treated like Barbara Schwarz and nobody protests against that, but watches for entertainment. - - - If the article should be kept, I will fight for the addition of the information, that Barbara Schwarz is most of all famous for being a scientologist. - - - I really am concerned about the activities of scientologists on wikipedia and we all know, how dangerous this cult can become for critics or members, who want to leave it. It is authoritarian, manipulative, working with fear and destructive, and uses non civilised methods to hold their's own or suppress criticism. Don't we support that. Let us show them, that society does not allow or defend or support that behaviour, but protects individuals and that human dignity is untouchable. - - - Each of us could be the next being defamed and mocked on wikipedia. Each and every of us. A kind of justification is easily written or done ("kook award", mention in a newspaper article ...). That is IMO the reason, why this article has been written at all. - - - Let us show them, that we do not tolerate that! Thank you. Lily Firered 18:01, 30 August 2005 (UTC) .Lily.
• Comment. Please remember to sign your votes with "--~~~~" to help us keep track of who is saying what. Anonymous users may want to register a named account, as anonymous votes typically carry less weight. Thank you. --Alan Au 18:12, 30 August 2005 (UTC)
• Weak keep as a notable eccentric and prominent religious figure. However, the sockpuppet limit "has been reached and exceeded".- Translation: If you're a brand spanking new user, and we have no way to tell you apart from all the other brand spanking new users, stop voting. Anonymous votes are often discarded, particularly when there's lots of them that vote the same way.--Scimitar ^parley 18:37, 30 August 2005 (UTC)
• Keep per the sockpuppets. Kappa 18:49, 30 August 2005 (UTC)
  • !! (and Weak keep for the opposite reason.) Barno 23:01, 30 August 2005 (UTC)
• Delete for several reasons. Being a frequent poster to newsgroups does not establish notability in my book. Evidence is that she is known locally in Salt Lake City but not nationally. Third is the presence of socks which is usually a sure sign of a lack of notability. Capitalistroadster 19:39, 30 August 2005 (UTC)
• Keep. Notable crazyperson. Virtually everyone who keeps up with Scientology, Usenet, OR the Freedom of Information Act has heard of her. Thatdog 20:21, 30 August 2005 (UTC)
• Keep per that dog. Sdedeo 20:25, 30 August 2005 (UTC)
• Keep. Sock puppets shouldn't count one way or the other, especially since that'll encourage people to make strawman sockpuppets. She's well-known in several virtual communities, and Salt Lake City is a major metropolitan city, larger than several nations; notability in a large city should be worth a lot in its own right.--Prosfilaes 20:40, 30 August 2005 (UTC)
• Keep. Schwarz often makes false and libelous claims about other persons who disagree with her, which she insists are claims of fact. However, Schwarz cannot cite substantiating evidence to verify her claims. Schwarz also is known to file frivolous and false reports to law enforcement about anyone who disagrees with her, in a similar manner to Schwarz's response to a Freedom of Information Act request that Schwarz deemed unsatisfactory (when Schwarz attempted to sue that entire Government department for not finding the evidence she wanted). This entry should be kept on file so that unaware persons are informed as to the nature of the likely credibility of any claims that Schwarz makes as statements of fact.
  • I don't want to go in that Scientology matter. It is not my religion, but I saw that Tilman posted on alt.religion.scientology and called all people to vote here who defame Ms. Schwarz and who lie that she would libel. She is a kind poster who just hits back when she is defamed. She does not make false statements of facts, but such are done on her, even in this Wikipedia article. I saw that she refers to several websites which webbed legal documents about the people who post on alt.religion.scientology. The majority of people who were called to vote her are expressed enemies of Scientology and of her. You would find such enemies also on us Mormons and they would leave no good hair on us. The people on alt.religion.scientology are abusive and blame her on what they do. To me it seems that just about anybody but Ms. Schwarz is crazy here. Ms. Schwarz, if you read this, why do you put up with this? Join the LDS Church and leave alt.religion.scientology behind you. Signed: a Mormon.
• Delete - if we do an article on every Usenet whackjob, we'll overload the servers for sure --Outlander 21:29, August 30, 2005 (UTC)
• Weak keep as a notable eccentric and semi-prominent conspiracy theorist. Hall Monitor 21:35, 30 August 2005 (UTC)
• Keep Decent google hits, needs rewriting for neutrality --Machtzu 22:56, 30 August 2005 (UTC)
• Keep Schwarz is one of the most notable posters to alt.religion.scientology; article is well written and encyclopedic as far as I can determine, and is not in any way scurrilous. As a consequence, I can't possibly see any merit in deleting it. --NicholasTurnbull 00:36, 31 August 2005 (UTC)
• Weak keep for having made the rounds enough in barely enough spaces. Alf 01:02, 31 August 2005 (UTC)
• DELETE The article on Barbara Schwarz is just harassment of her. If you could see "tilman" on alt.religion.scientology parading around about this article, you would agree he and some others have ganged up on Barbara and are using Wiki as a way to harass her. Don't allow Wiki to become a libel and defamation machine like Usenet has become. Please delete the article on Barbara Schwarz
• Keep but clean up the article. Barbara Schwarz is our nation's preeminent FOIA abuser, and has made herself a willing tool of the Scientology cult's campaign to harass and libel its critics. A summary of her history and beliefs is entirely appropriate for Wikipedia. But leave out the 'Kook of the Month" nonsense; that's just namecalling. And if she still considers herself a practicing Scientologist, the article should acknowledge that. Touretzky 02:02, 31 August 2005 (UTC)
• SHOVEL THE ARTICLE SOME MORE

Shovel the article some more. Dave Touretzky wrongfully claimed that I abused the FOIA system. He has no clue what my cases are about because he is so busy attacking and persecuting Scientology, study technology and drug rehabilitation. I requested from federal agencies records pertaining to myself, Marty Rathbun or Mark de Rothschild, L. Ron Hubbard, Church of Scientology or former President Dwight David Eisenhower. I requested searches in specific offices and records systems. Some agencies found records, some mailed me some with redacted information, some wrote they would have none, but rarely any agency provided sufficient information as to what kind of search they conducted or in what time period they searched. They also often misspelled names, which is odd, because when they don't get the names straight, how can they expect me to trust their information? I decided to request under FOIA their search records, the records that they generated during the search to see myself what they did. The Tribune reporter told me that he found that a smart move but he of course did not write that in his crappy article. Here is were the troubles with the feds started. Many agencies mailed me their records, and I saw that rarely anybody conducted adequate searches. I filed administrative appeals, which were not lawfully processed but the appeal authorities rather covered for the lower instances. Then I filed court cases and made the discovery that judges are not impartial but cover up lawless acts of federal workers. The letters that I received from federal employees, the affidavits that they filed are so suspicious, and their activities so un-American that I came to the conclusion that the U.S. government is filled with workers that serve another master than the USA. Read the details here: Part 1: Barbara Schwarz about Barbara Schwarz litigation against the infiltrated U.S. government http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=a6bc00a0.0301071056.47d7b787%40p... Part 2: Barbara Schwarz about Barbara Schwarz litigation against the infiltrated U.S. government http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=a6bc00a0.0301080937.558b97c8%40p... Part 3: Barbara Schwarz about Barbara Schwarz litigation against the infiltrated U.S. government http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=a6bc00a0.0301090958.d33750b%40po... Part 4: Barbara Schwarz about Barbara Schwarz litigation against the infiltrated U.S. government http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=a6bc00a0.0301100853.7190db4f%40p... Part 6: Barbara Schwarz about Barbara Schwarz litigation against the U.S. government http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=a6bc00a0.0301110955.4368523a%40p... Anyway, you should know that I filed a FOIA request to all agencies of the U.S. intelligence community in October 2000 and asked them to pull the files of Osama Bin Laden. And guess what? None of them did. And be reminded that the September 11 Commission came to the conclusion that the Sept. 11 clues were in the governmental files since the late 90s. If the FOIA officers would have done their jobs on my FOIA requests instead of being lazy or corrupt, someone could have raised the alarm as to what Bin Laden's Al Queda was up to. But an infiltrated and not really American government of course turns everything around and defames ME of all people as "FOIA terrorist". It is outrageous! It is as bad as calling Anne Frank a Nazi! And here some more information on Dave Touretzky who usually blames the wrong target. A guy like he of course webs that crabby Tribune article because he loves yellow journalism. Before he webbed that thing he had an awful dirty article about a former Miss, Kathy Johnson on his website. He also is obsessed with bomb instructions on his sites. He claims that the C of S uses me. Didn't Tilman Hausherr claim that I am no Scientologist? Now I am suddenly one again but this time working for the C of S? I don't work for the C of S, but I am a private Scientologist. The reason why I post on ARS is PERSONAL and not on order or request of the C of S. Below is what Dave Touretzky has on his despicable bomb instruction, porn and religious persecutor webpage about me: "Who is Barbara Schwarz (see article), and why is this former president of the Church of Scientology of Germany obsessed with me? Could it be because Scientology hates my Razor article?" There is no obsession on my part with the rat professor. And what is the crap about the Razor article? I find Touretzky's ways wrong, don't like that I received his harassing porn letter, don't like his bomb instructions, and that he goes after my websites and removes them with illegal methods from the net. He is obsessed with denying free speech to me. I don't harass, libel or defame the "critics" of Scientology. I never wrote intentionally any false information about anybody and nobody in the world can force me to do that. Most of the "critics" are fanatics who lie horrendously about L. Ron Hubbard, Scientology and me. I don't like these kind of abusers, so what I post about them is TRUE, and they don't like it. Dave Touretzky doesn't like that I post so I got a harassing porn letter with his name and address on the porn invoice, and it is the truth. I received that letter with the USPS, it still needs to be tested if Dave's DNA is in it but nothing that I posted about him or anybody else was or is untrue. In other words, that Dave Touretzky or others wrote that I libel or harass is libel and harassment of their parts, not of mine. Signed Barbara Schwarz

---

From: [email protected] (Barbara Schwarz) Newsgroups: misc.education,misc.education.­science,misc.activism.progress­ive,alt.religion.scientology,s­ci.skeptic Subject: Why does a pervert get a federal grant? NNTP-Posting-Host: 205.127.246.149 Message-ID: Since David Touretzky continuously oppresses my free speech by having my website taken down because I have been exposing the truth about his sexual perversions, I have re-typed the invoice that was sent to me. Why is the US government giving grants to this pervert who is using Carnegie Mellon University's phone number to order dildos? I have also asked a friend to post the invoice to an alt.binaries* newsgroup. Below is how the real invoice looks., Note the phone number (412) 268-7561, which goes straight to Touretzky's office (not via his secretary) at Carnegie Mellon University: INVOICE: JT's Page Date Invoice. No. Stockroom 1 12/05/02 125888A All the Best in Sexual Technology 2140 Hyperion Ave. Los Angeles, CA 90027 Phone: (800) 755-8697 or (323) 666-2121 Fax: (800) 357-8697 or (323) 913-59736 BILL TO SHIP TO David Touretzky 800 Nordeen Drive West Mifflin, PA 15122 Customer No. Sales I.D. Reference # Media Code Terms 99154 /CJ / xxxxxxxx4235 DISCOVERER Ordered by Warehouse Phone Number Total Wt. Zone Packages Ship (412) 268-7561 0.3. Lbs 0 1 PPI Message: Happy Holydays from the staff at www.stockroom.com City B/O Shipped Items # Description Unit Price Disc Extension 1 0 1 A810 Hot Rod-Sport, Red 27.000 -- 27.00 1 0 1 B087 Silk, Blue Pearl, Small 10.000 -- 10.00 1 0 1 CAT JT's Stockroom Catalog 0.000 -- 0.00 MERCHANDISE INVOICE TOTAL $ 37.00 SHIPPING & HANDLING $ 8.00 INVOICE TOTAL $ 45.00 CR. CARD: DI.APPR:005069 $ -45.00

---

­--------------------------

What are the federal employees thinking by awarding such a man who said himself that he is already overpaid and has also bomb instructions on his website? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 205.127.246.48 (talk • contribs) 1 September 2005 (UTC)

• Keep for the reasons stated above. However I'd add a note when acknowleding her supposed Scientology membershp, that Scientology is "clueless about this person" [4]. That will keep Church of Scientology at bay too. --Mgormez 03:15, 31 August 2005 (UTC)
  • Again you are turning around the facts, Mike Gormez. Scientology is of course not clueless about her. She was the general manager of that cult in Germany. And the cult-PR wants to make us believe, that they have no clue about her? The truth is, that scientology pretends to be clueless about her. Barbara Schwarz is a scientologist. Lily Firered 09:03, 31 August 2005 (UTC)
    • Brink in the Wall/Lily Firered, Scientologist is a trademark and as such the trademark holder can indentify its products and services, and they don't recognize Barbara Schwarz as one of them. "Scientologist is a collective membership mark designating members of the affiliated churches and missions of Scientology." [5] Mgormez 14:50, 31 August 2005 (UTC)
  • Where is that written, Mike Gormez, that Hubbard created a trademark? I mean, where did Hubbard himself state that? Did he once say: "I create a trademark!"? Where, when? If so, then it is not a religion? So the status of being a religion and the name of being a church has to be cancelled very, very quickly, I think. Let us bring this to the tax department's attention. Barbara Schwarz is a scientologist. Lily Firered 18:59, 31 August 2005 (UTC)
• Keep She's very vocal with her harassment of Scientology critics, and she's an interesting study in the pro-Scientology anti-Scientology Freezone debate. --Bess 03:15, 31 August 2005 (UTC)
  • Posted by 221.221.17.141
• Keep There are more than enough supporting data about Barbara Schwarz from various gov't and state agencies to support the entry here. She has made her claims not only in the court of public opinion (online) but in the United States court systems. Information related to her can be readily foudn with a simple search of her name in various search engines, it is important that Wikipedia keep her entry intact as it will no doubt assist others who inquire about related areas and subjects involving this individual. --Frankcoop 10:09, 31 August 2005 (UTC)
• Keep; the present article now establishes notability by the second sentence. It needs to be watched by a critical mass for NPOV, but given the subject that is as likely to work out over time as any article on Scientology. Samaritan 08:15, 31 August 2005 (UTC)
• Holy shit! BJAODN that rant, Keep the article. -HX 17:34, 31 August 2005 (UTC)
• Keep, if only for the FOIA reference and her former connection to "official" Scientology. The article needs watching to maintain NPOV (on BOTH sides), of course. - 206.114.20.121 18:35, 31 August 2005 (UTC)
• Keep but revise substantially. Schwarz is a well known figure in legal circles due to her massive amount of litigation which is barely touched on in the article. This dates from long before her Usenet presence. She gets tons of Google hits and should expect to be in the public eye since she thrust herself into it. Her current doings on Usenet are of much less interest. Phr 00:40, 1 September 2005 (UTC)
• Delete and hold it right there, Phr. I made some research on her. I found out that she only posts because she was defamed on Usenet BEFORE she ever posted. Filing FOIA requests and legal cases does not mean that she thrust herself into the public eye. I found no website in which Barbara Schwarz tried to get attention. She can't be blamed for other people putting her on the web and the press chasing her. She raised a very good point herself. Is she a public figure per legal definition or does she deserve privacy? And as long that is not clear, the defamatory article as to go. Signed: Wikinger.
  • Seems to me that being the President of the German branch of Scientology is about as notable a position as being Archbishop of China. --Carnildo 03:57, 2 September 2005 (UTC)
    • Very well said, Wikinger. Lily Firered
• Keep. Notable kook. And, last I checked, I'm not a sock of anyone. - A Man In Black (Talk | Contribs) 20:04, 31 August 2005 (UTC)
• Keep. No valid grounds given for deletion. --Carnildo 21:47, 31 August 2005 (UTC)
  • Guess this guy has a misunderstanding what valids grounds are. Being no public figure, for example IS a valid ground. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 205.127.246.48 (talk • contribs) 1 September 2005 (UTC)
• Keep. Mention that Barbara currently considers herself to be a Scientologist, but she is not a member of the Church of Scientology as she states she was kicked out many years ago. Removing the Usenet Kook reference would probably help better its NPOV. Vivaldi 00:46, 1 September 2005 (UTC)
  • If an Al Queda guy kicks a Jew out of a Jewish synagogue, does that mean that the Jew is not more Jewish? I was not kicked out by a Scientologist but by infiltrators, the same people who write distorted and false articles about me. Moreover, the Church of Scientology asked me several times to come back, and I never resigned from the Church of Scientology. But I am not on staff but a private Scientologist. These Wikipedia contributors are so stupid. -- Barbara Schwarz — Preceding unsigned comment added by 205.127.246.48 (talk • contribs) 1 September 2005 (UTC)
    • That is why the article clearly states, "Barbara says she is a Scientologist". Ms. Schwarz doesn't attend church services or any other services at the Church of Scientology and she admits she was booted out of the organization. Whoever booted her out apparently had the authority of the Church of Scientology to boot her, so it matters not if Barbara calls them "infiltrators" or "psyche trolls" or "Nazis". The current Co$ doesn't acknowledge her anymore. Vivaldi 01:42, 3 September 2005 (UTC)

• • "Vivaldi" is an ID stealer, a forger, harasser and liar. He is either 11 years old or mentally retarded. He forged me and others on websites. He is a criminal. -- Barbara Schwarz — Preceding unsigned comment added by 205.127.246.48 (talk • contribs) 1 September 2005 (UTC)

• • • I used the nickname "vivaldi" before most people even heard of the internet. It was one of my first USERIDs (and the id part of my e-mail) on an IBM Mainframe running VM/CMS on BITNET clear back in 1989. This is a non-sensical argument anyway. There is absolutely no confusion between myself and Barbara Schwarz. I am not a forger. Barbara is lying about that. The website she is referring to specifically stated that the Barbara Schwarz being discussed was not the same woman that posted on usenet and lived in Salt Lake. It was a completely different person and Barbara has been told this many times. I am not 11 years old. I'm over 30. Barbara and her stalker friend Patrick Michael Sullivan have "outed" me numerous times as various different people and they continue to harass and telephone these people (who they believe to be me) in real life and harass their aged parents. I'm far from retarded, as I am a Kansas Honor Scholar and I have a degree in Mechanical Engineering from a major university. This is not the first time that Barbara has libeled me by calling me a criminal. I've asked her numerous times to call my county Sheriff and report my crimes and I gave Ms. Schwarz his phone number to do so. I also provided her with the phone number for the FBI after she claimed my crimes somehow were under federal jurisdiction. Barbara refuses to call the authorities to report the crimes she says I am committing. Please Ms. Schwarz, if I am committing a crime NOTIFY THE POLICE -- stating it here on Wikipedia isn't a likely method to get me locked up for my supposed crimes. Vivaldi 01:42, 3 September 2005 (UTC)

• Keep and cleanup. Zscout370 (Sound Off) 02:25, 1 September 2005 (UTC)
• Keep. Oh, god damn. My stomach hurts so hard right now from laughing. Wow, what a great audience. —RaD Man (talk) 04:52, 1 September 2005 (UTC)
  • • What's so funny about fanaticals defaming a person on Wikipedia and what's so funny by violating laws? What's so funny about a bunch of lawless folks who use Wikipedia as an outlet of their lies and persecution? You have a strange sense of humor. -- Barbara Schwarz — Preceding unsigned comment added by 205.127.246.48 (talk • contribs) 1 September 2005 (UTC)
• Delete non encylopedic, crazy person. Can I put my crazy Uncle Bill in Wikipedia who think we are still at war with Germany? --JPotter 23:26, September 1, 2005 (UTC)

Note to self--- start new wiki: "Crazypedia". Karmafist 14:38, 2 September 2005 (UTC)

Note to self --- start new wiki "Hatepedia" and put Karma and his friends in.

• • • • Your uncle Bill seems a lot smarter than you are, Jason Potter. Germany does not more use their weapons directly to harm the USA but they use other nations or nationals to attack the USA or/and Israel. My guess is that you were so occupied with lying and defaming others that you missed that Germany companies helped Lybia to build chemical weapon plants, and the company Tilman works for, Siemens, manufactured devices that can be used to detonate nuclear weapons, and I can go on and on.-- Barbara Schwarz
        • Barbara, do you mean Libya? Just curious if it was a mispelling. Karmafist 18:58, 2 September 2005 (UTC)
  • Shouldn't conspiracy theorists be admired for their ideas and guts providing some possible explanation for this crazy planet? At leasts they are thinking and not just heckling.

I wonder who has interest in giving conspiracy theorists a bad rap, Mr. Potter? Could it be the conspirators?

• Keep due to having the most FOIA requests. Block Schwarz herself for legal threats and sockpuppetry under the "A Mormon" tag. Karmafist 14:38, 2 September 2005 (UTC)
  • As I said, Wikipedia contributors are lawless defamers who misportray me deliberately as they are full of hatred and love just one kind of free speech, their own! If not everybody hates me, it must be me in her little fanatical hate minds. Block lawless hatemongers as Karma. I also wonder where the legal threat by that Mormon is. -- Barbara Schwarz
    • Add the multiple violations of WP:civil she's had as well to my reasons for why she should be blocked. BTW, you can see the legal threats she made on the talk page of the article on her. Karmafist 18:58, 2 September 2005 (UTC)
      • I am not Ms. Schwarz, Karmafist, and your claims claiming that I am are false and a violation against the Wikipedia regulations. I don't want to reveal my name as I don't want to be harassed. Many of the people who hate the Scientology groups also hate the LDS church. -- Signed a Mormon
        • Which regulations am I breaking A Mormon? Please let me know, and we can talk about it. Until then, in my eyes all anon IPs are potential sockpuppets regardless of what they say. It's very easy to create an account, they're free and it takes a few seconds -- just click on that link on the top right hand side of the screen. You'll find that people take you more seriously, especially on VfDs. Karmafist 00:47, 3 September 2005 (UTC)

• • • • • • Ma'am (in case you are one) you make claims which you can't prove, which is a violation not just against Wikipedia policies but also against laws. It is not mandatory under Wikipedia policies (or the law) to get an account. Sofar, nobody else but you has a problem with posters not using an account. You should ask Wikipedia to change the rules if you suffer under them but not publishing that I am a Scientologist and/or Ms. Schwarz. If I would open an account, I still could be accused of being a "sock puppet". You may be also the sock puppet of somebody. Who are you anyway?

I am Mormon and this here is my beloved church: http://www.lds.org/ I accidentally run in this article about Ms. Schwarz because there is a LOT of noise on Usenet about. I noticed that Mr. Tilman and others overwrite any impartial and correct information on that lady, which I find very unfair. The LDS religion is a minority under the world religions too, Ms. Karma, and I noticed that my church is also defamed in the usegroups that beat up on Ms. Barbara Schwarz. And I also know that the Salt Lake Tribune is no good newspaper. They have a history of scandals.

I noticed on your Userpage that you are having mental problems, Karma, and that is the reason I will not challenge you further, but please don't make false statements anymore. And don't be so suspicious. I think it is not even important on Wikipedia who somebody is but rather what he writes. You can't block another writer for what I write. It is not fair. If you operate that way, you will be one day blocked. Signed a Mormon

• Obvious Keep. Ms. Schwarz is well-known and well-publicized for FOIA requests. In addition to articles in Salt Lake City newspapers, she has also been mentioned on both MSNBC and FOX News.--Nicodemus75 11:34, 3 September 2005 (UTC)

• • I was mentioned on MSNBC and FOX News? I never heard that. Post the links or references. Who doesn't say you make that up?" Barbara Schwarz

• • • FOR LILY

the even harder to handle .Lily Firered. wrote:

> This would be the final version, as Tilman again found something to

> protest.

Tilman is a German secret agent officer. He works for the OPC, he has orders and has to suppress anything his secret service does not like.

> > -------from wikipedia talk page-------

> Barbara Schwarz is now living in Salt Lake City, Utah. She has german

> roots.

I have no German roots.

> Schwarz is a scientologist. She was the president of the German

> branch of the Church of Scientology from August 3, 1983 until July 10,

> 1984. [1].

> > Schwarz is also known for her many requests filed under the Freedom of

> Information Act. According to the Salt Lake Tribune, Schwarz has

> submitted thousands of FOIA requests to the United States Government

> and followed these up with dozens of lawsuits against thousands of

> federal employees.

Where is the evidence that I filed thousands of FOIA requests? You have to order the FOIA logs from the U.S. agency from 1998 through 2001 and count their entries. Those are just a few hundreds.

>Many of these attempt to substantiate her claims

> that she is the granddaughter of President Dwight D. Eisenhower and the

> daughter of Church of Scientology founder L. Ron Hubbard, and that her

> husband Mark (aka Marty) Rathbun was wrongfully arrested in Madrid,

> Spain, in 1988 and taken to the United States, where he is secretly

> being held.

> > Usenet history

> > Besides her frequent FOIA requests, Schwarz posts regularly to the

> Usenet newsgroup alt.religion.scientology, where she defends

> scientology passionately and eloquently.

I don't defend, Lily, I correct falsehoods about L. Ron Hubbard and Scientology.

> She posts sometimes critical

> against the current hierarchy of the church, because she "made the

> personal experience that the Scientology organizations are infiltrated

> by non-Scientologists".[Barbara Schwarz on the discussion (talk-)page

> of her article under "Moved from article"].

>Other posts have recounted

> her travels during the 1980s and how she was in legal trouble on

> various occasions, including for entering the White House, and twice

> confined to a mental health hospital in the U.S. and once in Germany.

> [2] [3] [4] [5] According to Schwarz, these events were the result of a

> conspiracy by a group called the "Still Existing German Nazi

> Psychiatrists Mindcontroller Secret Service" (SEGNPMSS)." [6]

I don't like that there is not in it what these agencies and psychs did to me, e.g. beating me up, breaking my arm twice, taking my money away, and the German crimes, that German District attorney kidnapped me from Copenhagen, made false charges up AFTER I was arrested, that I was beaten up by German police, that I was not allowed to an attorney while the German corrupt government issued one decree after the other against me to which I could not defend myself, that I was never crazy, and when I was, it is the fault of the German government and psychs who treated me as badly as the century Jew. It also needs to me mentioned that I was kidnapped to be deprogrammed later. I posted in the voting section of Wikipedia a long article with those details.

Tilman does not want the crimes of his government and friends in this article as he has to protect them. It is is order as OPC agent.

Barbara Schwarz

> > -------------------------------------

> Yet deletion of the complete article about Barbara Schwarz would still

> be my preferred option. And Tilman please do not interrupt the article.

> If you want to comment please do it in one block at the end. Lily

> Firered 13:45, 3 September 2005 (UTC)

> > --------end wikipedia talk page-------

> > Could you agree with that?

> .Lily

• Comment: Pardon me, but are you still talking? —RaD Man (talk) 19:57, 3 September 2005 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in an undeletion request). No further edits should be made to this page.