Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Bain Ligor

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. There is a clear consensus that the coverage in currently available sources does not meet notability guidelines at this time. _signed,Rosguill ^talk 04:42, 1 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Bain Ligor[edit]

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Fails WP:MUSICBIO. The only significant thing about her I found is that she has a YouTube channel with 100,000 subscribers, and a video with over 2 Million views. Other than that I think this is a case of WP:TOOSOON. Daiyusha (talk) 05:02, 19 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The article creator claims that she is a popular singer in the Kalmyk community of 300,000 people. Her YouTube channel seem to indicate she mainly sings in Russian language, and happens to be ethnically Kalmyk. Daiyusha (talk) 09:54, 21 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Bands and musicians-related deletion discussions. Shellwood (talk) 08:21, 19 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Russia-related deletion discussions. Shellwood (talk) 08:21, 19 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

For Kalmyk nationalities, who is only 300 000 in the world is a great success. Obviously you cannot compare it with Mile ho tum with billions Indians viewers but for Kalmykia is a greatest success. You should consider Relative numbers here in other case it would be discrimination of small nationalities — Preceding unsigned comment added by Makushima (talk • contribs) 09:28, 19 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Makushima: Is she a big singer/promoter of a particular type of endangered music? If yes, she deserves an article if she has news article. Just being "a YouTuber" in a 300,000 strong group shouldn't count. And certainly simply belonging to a minority isn't a criteria of notability either. Daiyusha (talk) 10:21, 19 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

If you consider her not as good singer, she is 100% notable figure of Kalmyk people. And Kalmyk nationality can proud of her daughter. She is promoting Mongolian language branch songs (Kalmyk and Buryat) and beauty of those languages. It is unique singer. Does Metallica or Maddona sing in melodic Mongolian (well Kalmyk or Buriyat) languages? No.. they are like any other thousand singers sing in English. They are not unique. There is two news article links in article and one is on Информационный портал Республики Калмыкия which is equal US government portal for American. The thing that she share her singing on youtube is completely irrelevant. People like not because she is youtetuber but because of her voice and unique songs. Being noticeable figure in minority IS a createria to be noticeable.... — Preceding unsigned comment added by Makushima (talk • contribs) 11:19, 19 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Delete does not meet our inclusion criteria for musicians.John Pack Lambert (talk) 19:47, 19 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Leave she is noticeable person of Kalmyk Minority. News article on Kalmyk Republic Portal shows it. You discriminating minorities, by putting them to unequal "noticebility" condition.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minority_descrimination_on_Wikipedia — Preceding unsigned comment added by Makushima (talk • contribs) 12:35, 20 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia#Discrimination_of_Minorities — Preceding unsigned comment added by Makushima (talk • contribs) 13:06, 20 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Please change classification from Noticeable Singer to Noticeable person of Kalmyk Minority. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Makushima (talk • contribs) 13:16, 20 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Of the two links about discrimination above, the first is a short essay written yesterday by Makushima him/herself that has already been nominated for speedy deletion. The second link is to an attempted new section at the general article about Wikipedia that Makushima wrote yesterday and was immediately reverted. This is a false argument anyway because Wikipedia has a variety of robust articles on the Kalmyk people and their history and culture, which would not be nearly so informative if WP discriminated against them. Also, none of this makes Ms. Ligor notable. ---DOOMSDAYER520 (TALK|CONTRIBS) 17:07, 20 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Makushima: All I'm asking is news articles claiming she's a top singer of a language. Kalmyk sources are also okay. That's it. WE NEED SOURCES. You claiming that she's a noticeable person is not enough. If she's too new to the field, fine, wait for some time, she's a Russian too, some newspaper may cover her. My state in India has 5% of India's population. We have our own reality and singing competitions in our own language not spoken by 95%of the country. Some participants of those are known to the entire state(nearly 60 Million people), doesn't make them wiki-notable until they actually do something, like perform in movies or win a top competition. Daiyusha (talk) 13:44, 20 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Daiyusha:

Does is it required that language must be dying? I think it is enough genocide for Kalmyks - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deportation_of_the_Kalmyks Thanks to God, Kalmyk is not dying language. And I wrote many times, I don't know who said that she is TOP singer / Pop star / Superstar (Rajni) / Stylish star (Allu). SHE IS NOTICEABLE PERSON OF KALMYK PEOPLE. Tthis fact is confirmed by Official news portal of Kalmyk Republic (her success in described in the news). Which is a TOP. There is nothing higher than that for news for Kalmyk nationalities. Which is equal if Official Tamil Nadu Government Portal put article about you, if you won the completions. For Tamil is a top. And Competitions of International. It means other nationality accept her as best. But most important thing that people recognize her talent with subscribing to her channel and view counts. It will be if some Malayalam won whole India completions and received 500 Millions on you tube. As I told you earlier: you should consider relative numbers in this case. Unfortunately in Russia (Kalmykia part of Russia) don't have similar culture as India, where cinema industry has such a big influence on society, so you cannot compare and expect that she will be background singer for Katrina Kaif or Nayanthara (But I would like that it will happens someday ;-) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Makushima (talk • contribs) 20 January 2021 (UTC)

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Women-related deletion discussions. Spiderone^{(Talk to Spider)} 14:51, 20 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Are there any reliable sources available in any language about this person? Spiderone^{(Talk to Spider)} 14:52, 20 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

SpideronePLEASE READ THE ARTICLE, THERE LINKS TO OFFICIAL PORTAL OF REPUBLIC OF KALMYKIYA. DID YOU READ THE ARTICLE BEFORE ASKING THIS QUESTION?
Spiderone None that I can find. Very talented woman and amazing at what she does but there is nothing by what Wikipedia would consider a reliable source. I would love to keep this article as many others I have voted on but the notability requirements are such that we can not unless that criteria is met. It pains me but she doesn't pass the bar of notability. --ARoseWolf (Talk) 15:15, 20 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
TsistunagiskaPLEASE READ THE ARTICLE, THERE LINKS TO OFFICIAL PORTAL OF REPUBLIC OF KALMYKIYA. DID YOU READ THE ARTICLE BEFORE ASKING THIS QUESTION?

That's a massive shame. I hope that some sources do come out from somewhere. Spiderone^{(Talk to Spider)} 15:36, 20 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I wish for the same. If it does I will change my !vote. --ARoseWolf (Talk) 15:38, 20 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Delete Does not pass the notability criteria set forth in WP:N. Can't find anything in the Kalmyk (I hope I wrote that right, sorry if I didn't) or Russian that would be considered reliable. She has an Instagram. She has a Facebook. She has a YouTube channel. She is quite talented and a lot of people love her music. That's all we have for now and it simply isn't enough. --ARoseWolf (Talk) 15:21, 20 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

TsistunagiskaI tired to repeat the same - SHE IS NOTICEABLE PERSON OF KALMYK PEOPLE. The reason that she became noticeable is her music activity. But this is not reason why she mentioned om Wiki.

Delete - Let's be charitable with WP:TOOSOON. This is a revealing discussion, as the person who wants to keep the article is essentially begging for sympathy because the musician is hobbled by her obscure location and small ethnic group, while those voting to delete find it unfortunate. Well, I too think she is very talented with great potential, but she simply has not been noticed by any reliable media to generate the coverage that is needed for Wikipedia's crucial notability guidelines. The article's supporter must understand that Wikipedia is an encyclopedia in which people/things must qualify for inclusion. Allow me to suggest that the musician could hire a professional publicist that can get her music into the hands of reliable journalists in bigger communities. ---DOOMSDAYER520 (TALK|CONTRIBS) 16:54, 20 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Doomsdayer52I tired to repeat the same - SHE IS NOTICEABLE PERSON OF KALMYK PEOPLE. The reason that she became noticeable is her music activity. But this is not reason why she mentioned om Wiki.

We have other options: delete this article and I recreate it as victim of minority discrimination policy of Wikipedia. For example, Aleut singer never will be mentioned on Wiki due this policy. There is 400 Aleuts in the world. They don't have printed newspaper. And there is no article about their singers in USA or Indian newspapers, obviosly. And Even if they would have newspaper, wiki will delete article, because 400 copies newspaper is not significant (even it covers WHOLE NATION). If you do this for Chinese singer the article will remain. This is a pure discrimination.

Makushima: As a person of minority status and a woman I understand and share in your frustrations and feelings concerning many policies and guidelines, not just here but in a lot of places. Is it discriminatory? Yes. Is it shameful? Yes. I'd be the first to vote for change and if you can civilly do so within the procedures of this organization then I will support that move 1000%. To question whether I read this article or attempted to search every available avenue for something I could point to as evidence she passes Wikipedia's criteria is both ignorant on your part and assuming bad faith on the part of myself and others who have commented here. I personally find it offensive. This is not Asareel's policy. This is Wikipedia's policy. I agreed to be an editor here and I must follow the policy given to me to follow in regards to AfD's and notability for inclusion. To part from that, without changes to the criteria itself, would be disingenuous to the countless articles that have already been deleted as the result of the current criteria and yet were just as notable in my mind as this beautiful and talented woman. As a side note, please make sure to sign your comments, thanks. --ARose Wolf 15:30, 21 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Tsistunagiska You asked official information - I provided you link from Official Portal Of Kalmykia. You should understand, I am not frustrated, even it probably looks like this.

I am trying to achieve my personal life goal - to create article about this person. And I think I fulfill your conditions and you are still not happy. So I just describing you another way to achieve my goal. I don't want to offend anyone. If I did this, I am sorry. Obviously, being described as victim of discrimination is not so good as noticeable person of Kalmyk nationality but it is allows me to reach my goal. So it is not frustrated expressions. Frustrated expressions will sounds like this: Genghis Khan started his first war because of Mongolian woman and created biggest land empire in history. I consider Klamyk are part of Mongolian nationality, so don't force me repeat it! ;-) It is a joke. I don't want offend anyone. But I will proceed with my activities. I wrote several letters to EU Commission about discrimination of fathers in family courts. So if I fail here I will wrote to them, asking put sanction on Wikipedia for discrimination. Something like this... I am not against Wikipedia - greatest source of information. I am against discrimination policies on Wikipedia. I am not frighting you (obviously). You can ban at any second. But I think I do the right thing (just like in Spike Lee film) ;-)

@Makushima: She sings in Russian mostly, she obviously has Russian subscribers as well, That makes it about 146 Million more people who understand her and are likely to subscribe to her. I've read the comments on her "Kalmyk" songs, She has Russian and Kyrgyz listeners as well. Bain is a talented woman who sings well and can speak multiple languages, she is not discriminated or oppressed, her ancestors were. She's born in Kalmykia, (a state of Russia), and lives in Moscow as per the article you wrote on your own. That gives her an oppurtunity for a very large fanbase. A Russian citizen by birth, who lives in Moscow and sings Russian songs. I'm not sure that gives her any "disadvantage" as a minority in the sense of the article. If she wins a notable contest, or some Russian newspaper in her city decides to cover her growing popularity, she would have sources. All I would suggest is wait. Lack of sources is not discrimination. The biggest YouTuber in India right now, Bhuvan Bam(mainly comedian, but sings as well) had the article nominated for deletion as soon as it was created in 2017, when he already had 7 million subscribers by then. There are other Indian youtubers with nearly 10 Million subscribers who still don't get an article. There was this guy called Technical Guruji - Gaurav Chaudhary, he's essentially a Hindi Marques Brownlee, He was a household name(at least among youngsters) in India by 2015. Article was created and deleted in 2017. Got a mention in Forbes India's 30 under 30, only then he got an article created. Have patience. Daiyusha (talk) 05:28, 22 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Daiyusha: Everything what you wrote is correct, but is out of scope of our discussion. I can even add that there is Kazakh, Buryat, Tatar, Belarus, Ukrainian and other Russian Federation nationalities among her listeners. It doesn't change anything. Alongside that she live in Moscow and sing in Russian and English she beautiful woman, but she didn't won any Beatty contest like Aishwarya Rai. But you understand that it doesn't matter. It is not a reason why people write article about her. Dhanush on Wikipedia is not because he married daughter of Rajni, but because he is good actor. So all facts which you described doesn't change the fact that she NOTICEABLE PERSON OF MINORITY.

@Makushima: Let me put it straight. Where's the proof that she's a popular person among Kalmyks? If you have online proof of that, she can have an article, else you have to wait. Just like how so many big and small youtubers from countries like China, India, US and other populous countries also wait. Actors are a different thing, I'm comparing youtubers to youtubers, every single Indian you mention are actors. Indian youtubers are something only those who understand Indian languages and watch YouTube understand. India's famous for its actors, you know them. Russia is famous for its billionaires and sportspersons, I know them because they appear in various media.

You know Bain(100K subscribers) as a popular YouTuber, but I don't., Me and my friends know Harsh Beniwal(A punjabi with 12M subscribers where punjabis are only 120 Million(and are a minority in India), so nearly one tenth as per your logic) as a popular YouTuber, you don't, and both these youtubers will not get an article unless proof of their popularity exists in written form, either due to them winning an award, contest, or a significant mention in a newspaper. Being born as a Kalmyk is not a sign of Notability, and if you claim so, it would start to look like Reverse discrimination. Articles of my favourite Indian youtubers who are also talented youngsters will not be created unless they get a significant news mention, that's not discrimination, that's just a well defined policy. I would suggest to move our discussion outside this page and into the talk page. Daiyusha (talk) 12:36, 22 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Delete In a possibly vain attempt to forestall repetition, stating that she is popular over and over again without providing sources isn't going to "save" the article, no matter how much you all-caps shout. To equate the removal of one singer's article with genocide is disgusting. To claim that 100,000 subscribers equals a third of the global Kalmyk population is just ludicrous. There is no way to tell the ethnicity of even one of those subscribers, even assuming that they are all real, individual humans. They could be New Zealanders for all we know.

EggishornBut does it not noticeable person of Kalmyk minority which has 100K New Zealand subscribers? Any other similar examples? Aleut singer which has 100K Tatar supporters? It is ridiculous saying that if her subscribers are not Klamyk than they don't count. And saying they are not human but robots it completely ridiculous. Do you have reliable source to claim they are not humans? Significance of person for nationality doesn't ONLY counted by acceptance of people of this nationality. if Cherokee guy will get 1M indian supporters, dancing in Indian movie, For Cherokee minority it is significant person. Makushima (talk) 10:15, 23 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

There is a complete lack of significant coverage in independent, reliable sources.

Eggishorn if you don't like Republic Information portal we should delete Trumps page, because there is lot of information taken from government information portals. Can you prove that he was president of USA without government portal. All other sources took this info from there Makushima (talk) 10:26, 23 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Suggest seeing if the Russian wiki is interested. There's even a Kalmyk wiki that would probably be happy to have an article on this subject. Eggishorn (talk) (contrib) 18:45, 22 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Delete - Could only find two sources through Google News.[1][2] They are not adequate enough to satisfy WP:ENT, WP:NMUSIC, or WP:GNG. Morbidthoughts (talk) 23:13, 22 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

U:Morbidthoughts Google is not reliable source of information you shouldn't put search resultS here as evidence. There is lot's of information how google manipulate search results and court cases about it. You can google about it ;-) Makushima (talk) 10:15, 23 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Google is a tool, not a source itself. Please provide any other news articles about her that may be missing. Morbidthoughts (talk) 21:22, 23 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Delete May be a case of WP:TOOSOON, but currently WP:ENT, WP:NMUSIC, and WP:GNG are not met. Best, GPL93 (talk) 01:03, 23 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Delete - with regret, does not meet any Wikipedia inclusion guideline and after, lengthy and mostly circular discussion with the creator on my talk page, I am not convinced that any sources showing significant coverage exist. Yes, I am aware that she is from a community which lacks newspapers and news websites but we have to adhere to WP:N and WP:V, which are our core principles and, if we waive those policies here, it will have no good in the long run as we will have no way of verifying whether any of the info in the article is actually true Spiderone^{(Talk to Spider)} 09:26, 23 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Spiderone There wasn't any discussion. You just told me go to another site, because we suppress information about minorities according to our discrimination policies.... At leat I understaind it in that way Makushima (talk) 10:15, 23 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

She is a Russian.

Spiderone To have Russian citizenship and being Russian by nationality is it different thing. Do you think Stalin was Russian? Makushima (talk) 18:54, 29 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Any Russian newspaper would cover her if she does something big. She's not notable thats it.

Spiderone No, did many americans newspapers cover Best Apache singers? Now they follow the same policy as Wikipedia - suppress information about minorities. Makushima (talk) 18:54, 29 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

There's no discrimination. If her classmate,say a normal slav, had the exact same qualifications, she too wouldn't get an article. The best suggestion I can give you is that create an article for her on the Russian wikipedia. It is equally valuable but in a different language.

Spiderone If it is equal so why it is not in English? Most Kalmyks who live in Europe uses English as main language and probably they will search in English Wikipedia. Makushima (talk) 18:54, 29 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

This article doesn't belong here on the English wikipedia at all.

Spiderone Said who? Putin? Trump? Policy? Stereotypes in peoples heads? Makushima (talk) 18:54, 29 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I nominated the article for deletion because she didnt have good sources at all, in any language. I didnt know she belonged to a minority until you brought that up. Also @Spiderone: a bit of research shows she is a Russian too, and lives in Moscow, sings Russian songs on YouTube(her main hobby seems to be writing Russian songs, not a minority language songs) , she won a song contest in her own city of moscow, as part of a team. There is every possibility that a Russian paper would cover her in the future. i dont see her being disadvantaged in any way as far as media exposure is concerned. now it just seems like the author is using the word minority to blackmail us.

Spiderone You just show and see only half of facts. I can say she sings on Klamyk language. By UNESCO this is a Endangered language (check on Wikipedia). If Official Information Portal of Republic is not good source? So we should delete page about Trumps. he doesn't have any source that he president. Makushima (talk) 18:54, 29 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Daiyusha (talk) 10:26, 23 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with Daiyusha. The fact that she is a Kalmyk is not in any way relevant to this deletion discussion. The attempt to draw comparisons with Aleuts is also not in any way pertinent. Kalmyks number some 200k while the Aleuts are fewer than 500. At risk of sounding like a broken record, I repeat, if she is that notable, sources should exist saying such. Spiderone^{(Talk to Spider)} 11:02, 23 January 2021 (UTC)~[reply]

Daiyusha Obviously you delete want to delete this page not because she is Kalmyk, but because she doesn't have enough supporters, likes, articles compare with Indians singers who has billions auditory. And it is not that she is not popular in Kalmyk, she is not popular comparing with Indians who have 1 billion population. So it is pure suppressing minorities. If a nationality has small number of people you suppress information about them. So information about culture most nationalities on this page https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_groups_in_Russia will be suppressed. Only several top lines consider as human, other are second grade humans by Wiki Policy: information about their culture is not important, as their are not noticeable .....

Suggestion - I have been watching this awful discussion and really hope it ends soon. Makushima is trying and failing to guilt-trip all of us by making Ms. Ligor a stand-in for Makushima's grievances about how the ethnic group is covered in the world media. To assuage that person's misery, allow me to suggest that Ms. Ligor be listed in the "List of notable Kalmyks" section at the Kalmyks article if there is news of her winning the contest in Moscow, while she may qualify for an article in the Russian and Kalmyk Wikipedia's depending on their notability criteria. Good luck to Ms. Ligor, she's very good at what she does. ---DOOMSDAYER520 (TALK|CONTRIBS) 17:12, 23 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Doomsdayer520 Don't need formalities, just call her Princess ;-) 5.173.242.254 (talk) 19:00, 29 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Delete sourcing does not appear to exist to establish notability. Makushima, save your breath on future comments rather than WP:BLUDGEONING the discussion. Possibly (talk) 23:40, 23 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Possibly If I gave up fighting for my point of view we can end up with Mensch und Untermensch. And I think you know how it is ended.... Makushima (talk) 18:54, 29 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with Possibly. Makushima, please stop WP:BLUDGEONING. It's rude to reply to every comment. Also, please indent your posts using colons : :: ::: ::::, and please sign your posts using 4 tildes ~~~~. –Novem Linguae (talk) 22:02, 29 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Novem_Linguae Why it is rude? This is discussion page not voting page. It is opposite in discussion: ignoring interlocutors is rude. So I am trying to answer to every participant of discussion. Or discussion on wiki and discussion in real world means different thing? So your statement looks little bit not logical for me: we gathered here to talk about Bain, but you shouldn’t speak...

“The debate is not a vote; please do not make recommendations on the course of action to be taken that are not sustained by arguments.” I bring only arguments and reasons in my answers. Makushima (talk) 23:43, 29 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Note this edit by Makushima seems to have deleted and refactored some comments by other users. Not sure how to correct it. Possibly (talk) 23:19, 29 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Possibly Sorry I inserted my answers into answers of other participants, splitting them. I thought wiki smart enough to understand format it. I didn’t delete or amend comments of others. Makushima (talk) 23:48, 29 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Makushima: You did amend/change the commemnts of others. You should stop posting on this thread, it is really disruptive. You have alreay made your point ten times. Possibly (talk) 00:26, 30 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

This incident has been reported to ANI [3] Morbidthoughts (talk) 04:26, 30 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Morbidthoughts Thank you! I hope this will help to clarify situation! Makushima (talk) 08:18, 30 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Suggestion

Hello, Everyone! People start complaining that I “little bit” 😉 mess up with comments formatting. So I decided to summarize discussion, as it is a “little bit” hard to read it 😉 1) I wanted to make that it would looks like a real discussion, so put my comments after sentences which answered. So, person can easy understand where, as I think, she/he is wrong. 2) I repeat several times the same thing, because different people bring the same arguments, like saying that there is no reliable sources, so I highlighted to them that there is a Official Information Portal of Republic, their statement is little confusing to me… 3) If person says that Bain is Russian that it is also confusing to me. She is citizen of Russian Federation but her nationality is not Russian. It was mentioned on Republic Portal – she is Kalmyk. On her youtube channel too it was mentioned many times. I must highlighted those kind of obvious for me misconceptions to other people. 4) Requests to stop posting my opinion and arguments on this page looks completely not understandable for me. This is a discussion page, not vote page. People DISCUSS here, showing the arguments, that another person opinion is wrong from their point of view. So, when you say stop posting your comments, it is like suppression of democracy, freedom of speech, or what else? 5) I didn’t attack anyone here, like some people wrote. I understand, that if I am saying that there is discrimination policy on Wiki, where you separate people by nation and give them different opportunities, just because their nationality is small, it sounds offensive. People start thinking: “what I am working for discriminating company, no, I am not like Nazi who segregate nations”. But here I just clarifying existing fact, that Wikipedia separate nationality by noticeability policy. As I wrote, information about noticeable people from minorities, who is noticeable only inside minority, will be suppressed by Wikipedia. They will be considered as noticeable only if they accepted to be noticeable in “big” nations. So if you are feel offended than you should change policy. It is not my fault that policy which you use “offends you”. I just highlighted that fact. Without pointing to anyone personally. I understand that it is a corporate policy, not someone’s personal policy. 6) I proposed resolution of this situation, not just saying: we have bad policy – fix it. I understand that there are backgrounds behind this policy but it can be amended if you consider noticeability not by real number but relative comparable numbers for exact minority. You don’t need to bring 300K new servers to store millions minority singers or poets. You need just amend they way how you look at the world. 7) I appreciated advises to move this page to Russian or Kalmyck Wikipedia. This is a reasonable ADDITION. As someone mentioned English and other languages Wikipedia are equal. If it is like this, then it is not clear why should I move it but not copy. I mean why English readers must get less information than Russians? It is not clear for me what are you trying to reach by this? It like in English speaking world we don’t want to know anything about other cultures, we have our own… or something else? 8) I do not blackmail anyone, even I totally agree that it sounds like blackmail, when I say if you delete this page, I will make another page for her as minority discrimination victim on Wiki. I think you understand, that you can delete second page with the same easiness as first one. So it is hard to tell that this is blackmail. It is like threat with paper poster heavy armored SWAT officer. He can tear down your poster at any moment, and the only thing that you can do is to show him another poster. I would call it promise, not blackmail. 9) So let’s finish this discussion and start new one (with proper formatting 😉), when my next article “Discrimination Minorities on Wikipedia” will be nominated for deletion 😉 Makushima (talk) 10:47, 30 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I would suggest that Makushima concentrates on finding independent reliable sources rather than railing against Wikipedia. Such sources can be in any language and do not have to be available online, but they must exist. Some sources I can find that seem reliable are [4], [5], [6] and [7]. Phil Bridger (talk) 11:57, 30 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

DELETE This discussion has now blown over to ANI (how I found about it, as the fan has been bludgeoning this AFD) and this RFC should be put to bed. The article subject is a nice singer (thanks for that, never heard of her), but far from WP:GNG. Another example that comes to mind is Lanie Gardner who had that huge viral cover of fleetwood mac, but still it is not enough for us here at wikipedia. We would become a host of fan pages if we accepted less. Thanks! Jtbobwaysf (talk) 17:57, 30 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Draftify to improve article based on sourcing identified by Phil Bridger. It's unclear whether she's notable, but at the moment it's too soon for an article in mainspace. StarM 18:31, 30 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think that there's much point to draftification unless someone commits to improving the article. I'm not volunteering to do so and nobody else here other than Makushima seems to have any interest in improving it rather than getting it deleted. If nobody takes it on then it will simply languish for six months in draft space and then be speedily deleted under WP:G13. We should take the decision here and now as to whether the subject has enough notability. Phil Bridger (talk) 21:01, 30 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
- Very true. Draftify is usually my solution for good faith article creators, especially newer editors to have them know their content isn't entirely gone should they want to try and fix issues. If they lose interest, G13 takes care of it. I see it akin to redirects being cheap, but don't have an issue if it's deleted outright. Unfortunately I have no interest in musician articles to want to adopt this one. StarM 14:03, 31 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Delete - she seems like a very nice artist, but not enough for a stand alone article on WP. Kolma8 (talk) 20:12, 30 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Delete for failing WP:MUSICBIO. The article has just two sources, in Russian, that a ran through Google web page translator. One appears to announce her tour and the other is a brief article on her winning a local performance prize. Neither one even has enough information to meet inclusion criteria. We've never used counts of social media followers or youtube views/subscribers as criteria for inclusion. Those services are easily manipulated by bot services designed to boost view counts. She may be a promising young performer but as of now she doesn't come close to being notable. In general, if one is having trouble find sources to establish notability than that person doesn't meet criteria for inclusion in WP. In addition the page creating editor, Makushima (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log), has edits relating solely to this subject. This may be a WP:SPA and raises the question of possible WP:COI. Blue Riband► 04:09, 31 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Delete per Kolma8 and BlueRiband. It is always suspicious when someone defends an article very much, and only comes to an Afd to prove that the subject of the article is VERY notable. That always suggests COI, and most of the time it is (like now, for example). I have also read Makushima's talk page and the administrators' noticeboard, and I must say, this Afd needs to be closed as quickly as possible, and he/she must be blocked. We don't need users like him/her here. GhostDestroyer100 (talk) 19:26, 31 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.