Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Arthur Silber Jr.

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was redirect to Sammy Davis, Jr.. Notability is not inherited; however, redirects are cheap, and therefore one to Davis' article after deletion is not inappropriate Black Kite (t) (c) 00:36, 12 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Arthur Silber Jr.[edit]

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Appears to claim notability via friendship with Sammy Davis Jr. Sources are weak, primarily self-citing from resume, book, and Youtube interviews, with links to website selling the book. Looks like WP:COI from a single purpose account, with a promotional tone. JNW (talk) 04:11, 26 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Businesspeople-related deletion discussions. -- Jclemens-public (talk) 06:24, 26 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
You can rest assured that we are NOT Arthur Silber, Jr. Nor are we in any way affiliated with any public relations group, itself affiliated with anyone, let alone Mr. Silber.

You can also rest assured that I am not promoting or selling anything attached to Mr. Silber. His book, Sammy Davis Jr.: Me and My Shadow, is readily available through a number of resellers online and physically, and, as a publication of four years of age, needs no promotion.

I am a college professor from Alabama, as well as a graphic artist and photographer. I am 26 years of age, significantly younger than Mr. Silber's 78 years. I am obviously not Mr. Silber, and as such, I am not "self citing."

Video interviews with Arthur Silber, Jr. are available in a number of sources. However, most of them are low-quality uploads, and most of them have obnoxious advertisements that play for thirty seconds before the video plays. Mr. Silber's website contains an archive of interviews that he has given over the years about his career, and most especially his time with Sammy Davis, Jr. As well as being an easy-to-navigate omnibus of information about Silber, they are generally of better quality than what you would find on a site like youtube.

The claim that Arthur Silber, Jr. is not notable is ludicrous, and this had already been discussed when I began writing this article. I generated sources then, these same sources, which I then expanded upon. Other editors have helped format parts of this site, and this is the first time in close to a month that someone has contested this. Yes, the sources have not been cited until tonight, but as the sole writer of this article in this broad community I find it hard to single-handedly edit this page, especially as of late. I commit myself to my writing, but I do not obsess over it. I simply work as time and my students and clients allow.

Silber's book, Me and My Shadow, won and Irwin Award in 2006 for being the Best Entertainment Book of the Year. You may view their website for any additional proof of this.

To say that Silber it not notable is ridiculous. Read his book or look at his interviews, most especially his book. Not only are there stories in there about Sammy and his life, but there are also photographs that have not been seen elsewhere, including photos of Davis and Silber together, including the business license they signed to form SamArt Enterprises in 1958. For most of Sammy Davis, Jr.'s life, Arthur was there, right beside him, living and contributing to it all. Not only is there written evidence of this, there is visual evidence of this.

Is an image a source? I think so. More to the point, some of these images are going to be used in this article. I have permission to use them and I have them ready to go! I simply have not added them to the article yet. With the recent end-of-semester paperwork and evaluations, as well as the seasonal rush of work, I have simply lost track of time, and I apologize for that. Charge it to my head, and not my heart.

As well as this, Mr. Silber has performed several notable video interviews. NBC Nevada's newsmakers segment, with not only Silber but another friend of Davis, Angela's Closet, a successful cable talk show, amongst others.

A forty-five minute interview with Brad Butler was conducted with Silber discussing the legacy and life of the entertainer. Of this interview, Brad Butler had this to say:

In his biography of one of the greatest entertainers in history, Sammy Davis Jr.- Me and My Shadow, Arthur Silber Jr. lays out his personal journey as Sammy's closest confidant, advisor and business partner from the early 1950s to the mid-1970s. Peppered with scores of pictures never seen and stories never told, Silber also corrects details of major events in Sammy's life which have become legend through re-telling or being related in recent books.
Beyond setting the record straight and chronicling the life of an American icon, Silber is also on a mission to bring to light the very real strides Sammy made in breaking down numerous color barriers well before and during the Civil Rights Movement of the 1960s. Literally growing up on the boards of the vaudeville circuit during the 1930s and 1940s, Sammy saw first hand racial discrimination decades prior to the gains made in the tumultuous 1960s.
Silber, whose father managed the Will Maston Trio (Sammy's uncle), and Davis grew close in the mid-1940s and became practically inseparable for 25 years. When Sammy started to establish himself as a major star in the mid-1950s, he was allowed to play hotels in Vegas but not allowed to stay in them, eat in the restaurants or gamble in the casinos. Sammy broke that barrier down. This is only one example of the racial divides he confronted and just one example of how this diminutive entertainer changed life in America, for one of his deepest desires was just to be treated equally.
With the passing of Civil Rights pioneer Rosa Parks, focus has been on her role in bringing forth better treatment of blacks in the United States. While acknowledging Parks' role, and many others, Silber feels that Sammy Davis Jr. deserves a proud place in the pantheon of those who fought this fight in the trenches, confronting it in his travels around the country and often swallowing his pride, even in enduring death threats, so that those to follow would have it better than previous generations.
Sammy Davis Jr. was not just a great entertainer, he was a man sensitive to his surroundings, determined to change them and, most importantly, a proud man who loved his family, friends and country with equal fervor. With Thanksgiving just around the corner, we need to give thanks for brave men like Sammy Davis Jr.

Arthur Silber, Jr. is someone who lived a large segment of history. Did he make headlines? No. But he was there with someone who did, not just as a fan or a spectator, but as someone integral to the life of one of the most, if not the most, influential entertainers of the 20th century. We're not talking about some janitor's apprentice here, we're talking about someone vital. And Silber deserves to be remembered for that, he deserves the credit for that.

I could use time and a little help. Wikipedia,ironically, is not the friendliest of communities, or necessarily the most open. I'm new to this formality and would appreciate any and all help that I could get. I want this to succeed, I want this to show the quality that I can create, I want to honor someone who has an incredible adventure and story. Did he climb the Devil's Thumb or land on Mars or split the atom? No. But what he did do was make a difference, be it twisting Davis' arm when he tried to kill himself before his wedding or witnessing his conversion to Judaism. He made a difference. A measurable difference. In the life of someone. And don't we all have those? Those people that we would do anything to tell their story, to let the world know what they've done? I believe beyond any doubt that Arthur Silber, Jr. is that person to Sammy Davis, Jr.

And that's not some PR jargon, thank you very much. That's what I know from reading his story. And that's the only reason I am here right now. -Robert Brown- —Preceding unsigned comment added by Browneagle.44 (talk • contribs) 06:58, 26 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Your advocacy is appreciated--yours is a single purpose account, WP:SPA--but the concerns remain. The characterization of Wikipedia as 'soulless' if it denies the article's inclusion suggests a willful misunderstanding of the encyclopedia's purpose, and at the least an issue with WP:NEUTRAL. Perhaps the interviews and the book award (presented by the Book Publicists of Southern California, probably not a strong reference [1]) will be deemed by other contributors as sufficient; I'm not certain, which is why I've nominated the article for deletion. 'Self-citing' refers to many of the current references deriving from the subject's book, resume and website, none of which may be considered objective sources, per WP:RELIABLE. One has no reason to doubt the subject's friendship or importance to Sammy Davis Jr. What is questioned is his notability, supported by reliable sources--Wikipedia doesn't require atom splitting or Mars visits. Lacking that, the guideline that appears relevant is [2], which points to WP:ITSA. JNW (talk) 14:06, 26 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comment - I think the article's author is somewhat less than au-fait with the purpose and intent of Wikipedia. Whilst none may deny that Mr Silber was of importance to notable individuals (viz: Sammy Davis Jr), the central point here is that his own notability is not sufficiently demonstrated by reference to reliable, third-party sources. Eddie.willers (talk) 20:50, 26 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This debate has been included in the list of Authors-related deletion discussions. -- • Gene93k (talk) 01:25, 27 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Is there any way to possibly use what material there is concerning Arthur in another way, such as the Sammy Davis, Jr. page? I'm still trying to find sources and prove my case, but what other sort of good can possibly be done, in any case? I think there is a usable resource in the story of Sammy Davis, Jr., at the very least the formation of SamArt Enterprises as well as the origins of Davis wanting to act in movies. It's a unique perspective and an acclaimed account of the pre-seventies era entertainer. I've put time into finding these resources and would love to use them in any way. Thoughts or help would be so very much appreciated. Browneagle.44 (talk) 07:12, 27 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Arthur's career is not mentioned in many major publications. I'm not sure if a lighting director would be mentioned at all in a publication, even in the event in which they worked, due to the nature of their work.

However, I contacted Mr. Silber directly and was emailed a list of press coverage snippets. I'm working on sourcing them right now. He's also emailing me a DVD of an episode of a 60 minutes-style show the BBC did about him. There is also an award the Lettermen gave Mr. Silber for his time spent with them.

At this point, I'm not sure what to do. Again, is there a way to use the resources ( IE, Silber's book) in the Davis article?

Thanks in advance for your help. Browneagle.44 (talk) 02:02, 29 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Me again. I've edited my above (original) statement after reviewing Wikipedia's policies and realizing that I might not have necessarily understood Wikipedia's mission to be the objective archives of the world, key word "objective." I have went and removed anything that I think might have been construed as an attack on the project and apologize. Once I realized that Wikipedia's conversations are more open ended than, say, an academia discussion, I realized that I might have come off as rash, and I apologize. That passion and enthusiasm has served me well in Wikiversity, where I am also working on buffing up the Fine Arts faculties; not so much here.

You might not have guessed, but this is my very first Wikipedia article. As such, it takes some getting used to. In a lot of ways, it's like learning how to speak again, metaphorically of course.

So! Detailed discussion. I think we are all in consensus that there's not enough hard evidence to sustain a stand-alone article. I have a feeling that even if I was to find enough publications to establish notoriety that something else might come into question, starting this process all over again.

Arthur's book is a first hand account of Davis' career, before his drug use in the mid seventies. I read somewhere that first hand accounts might can be used as references if they are used with caution. Any articles or advice to guide me along?

The main issue is that of objective reliable sources to support notability, as explained in WP:BIO and WP:RELIABLE. If that's satisfied all else will fall into place. If an administrator decides to delete the article you can ask him or her to copy it and save it to a special userpage which you can continue working on. Anyway, I'd hope to get other eyes on this--this needs to be more than a dialogue between two editors. JNW (talk) 03:13, 29 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I'm a newbie here, so even one of you guys are boundlessly informative.

Can photos help this in any way? As well as the press information I'm working on, Mr. Silber has a couple of awards ( in the form of plaques) as well as a couple of personal letters. I know there's a clause in the guide to citing sources about citing images. Might be a long shot, but could it help? Browneagle.44 (talk) 04:28, 1 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Ron Ritzman (talk) 02:31, 3 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comment I would say sourcing would be the biggest issue. I have heard of him so I will not vote one way or another but with more sourcing it should be fine. Definitely an editing issue, not necessarily a deletion. A quick look around for the sales numbers of the book he wrote didnt see any results but that would be a plus to help with WP:AUTHOR. Good luck with it, looks good just needs some tweaks.Wolfstorm000 (talk) 06:28, 3 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Keep/merge The subject tends to appear in books about Sammy Davis Jr, being a close associate. At worst, we should therefore merge into that article where he would merit a mention. Deletion is not appropriate. Colonel Warden (talk) 12:13, 4 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Delete. Delettion is entirely appropriate; notability is not inherited, and he otherwise fails WP:AUTHOR. Abductive (reasoning) 22:20, 11 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.