Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Aria Barzegar (2nd nomination)

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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus with no prejudice against speedy renomination. The arguments to keep are numerically predominant but substantively weaker on policy. NFOOTY and FPL are not valid reasons to keep any more; sources that contribute to SIGCOV were mostly not mentioned explicitly; and at least one source so mentioned was convincingly rebutted. The discussion has gotten unpleasant, and with so many arguments not based in policy, I believe we are better served by restarting it. Vanamonde (Talk) 18:00, 19 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Aria Barzegar[edit]

AfDs for this article:

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Aria Barzegar (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log | edits since nomination)
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While he barely would qualify under the now deprecated WP:NFOOTY, he does not qualify under WP:NSPORTS or WP:GNG. Onel5969 TT me 01:01, 12 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

more ref: 1, 2, skysport, ESPN, eurosport, 3, 4, 5. news1, news2. news3, news4, news in persian and other links (in eng, russian, kazakh, persian lang) and refs on article. all links are wp:RS and used (sites and publishers) in many articles in english wikipedia.--Miha2020 (talk) 01:56, 12 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • That's an additional personal attack, please refrain from doing so in the future. Could get you into trouble. And just fyi, when an article is sent to AfD by an NPPer, it is automatically marked reviewed. As has been explained to you now several times, NFOOTY, which you quoted as the reason for your first removal of a notability tag, has been deprecated. Onel5969 TT me 01:45, 12 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep I don't know how he is barely known as notable sport person when he was member of one of elite club in Iran(Persepolis) and even win league title with them, play in pro league right now and more important play as starting lineup 2 days ago For national team against Nicaragua! I think sources are reliable enough. Shahin (talk) 06:36, 12 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Note: This discussion has been included in WikiProject Football's list of association football-related deletions. GiantSnowman 08:13, 12 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep - but just. Many of the sources presented above are databases, but there is some decent coverage, and it is verified that he made his international debut for Iran last night. This means there will only be more coverage in the near future. I am comfortable he is notable. GiantSnowman 08:16, 12 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Sportspeople, Football, and Iran. Shellwood (talk) 09:46, 12 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep International Iranian player now, from the cites posted here and on the the article looks more than enough to satisfy GNG. Also Onel5969 I don't see a personal attack there, and your response was a highly aggressive reply, you should be careful of flying boomerangs. Govvy (talk) 11:08, 12 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong delete Subject fails WP:GNG due to lack of significant coverage. Not a single one of the above mentioned sources or the ones in the article is significant coverage, only database sites, match reports and trivial mentions. WP:NSPORTS makes it very clear that all sport subjects must pass GNG regardless of professional or national team appearances. Any non-policy !votes stating that the article must be kept becouse of those appearances should thus be ignored by the closing admin. Alvaldi (talk) 16:32, 12 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Weak Keep. I'm finding a decent amount of coverage, some of which (e.g. this, maybe this) is probably SIGCOV. BeanieFan11 (talk) 16:41, 12 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep significant amount of coverage, passes notability requirements.--Ortizesp (talk) 19:44, 12 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep - Per above. Thanks, Das osmnezz (talk) 20:56, 12 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Week delete - None of the sources included in the article or noted by Miha2020 count at all towards the GNG (they are trivial). BeanieFan11 found two articles that could count towards it, but I'm unclear about the source of that information (it could be scraped from databases or the Wikipedia article based on how it's written). I'm pretty sure Titrebartar is an online magazine that is a reliable source, but less sure about Arga-Mag. Overall, I think this is just a case of WP:TOOSOON as much of the coverage shows that this player never made it as Persepolis and only made a handful of appearances with a Belarussian club prior to being handed an international debut in a friendly. Jogurney (talk) 19:12, 13 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    @Jogurney many refs are in article from sites, news agency that don't relate to database! databases show importance of player in football sites. toosoon??(in first AFD it was true). what is your idea about these: Julien Duranville, Jahzara Claxton, Zach Abbott, Facundo Núñez, Anders Noshe Syver Aas, Matías Abaldo, Raki Aouani , what is difference between these articles (with no tags in them!) and above article? some of them are 16 years old or 18! Even my article is better in many ways. (i can point more than 500 pages that are weaker than aria barzegar). creators of them have Autopatrolled access, but i don't have! previously soccerway.com was enough for footballers pages. we can't wait footballers become 23-24 and then create their aticles! Miha2020 (talk) 22:13, 13 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    As noted elsewhere, every footballer that has a soccerway.com profile is not notable under WP:SPORTBASIC. Several months ago, WP:NSPORTS2022 made it clear that NFOOTBALL was no longer to be relied upon. I agree with you that there are hundreds (likely thousands) of other footballer biographies that fail SPORTBASIC. The solution is not create dozens more, but rather to improve those articles or remove them from Wikipedia if they cannot be improved to the SPORTBASIC standard. Why can't we wait until footballers are 23 years old to create a biography if that's how long it takes for reliable sources to cover them in a significant, in-depth manner? However, it is my experience that plenty of younger footballers receive significant coverage well before they become 23. Jogurney (talk) 14:37, 14 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    for example you nominated Klajdi Dule (why this one only?) but can we nominate 80% of Category:Men's association football players by position? of course not! we have about 178000 footballers pages in english wikipedia ! Miha2020 (talk) 15:18, 14 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    I didn't nominate Klajdi Dule for deletion, but I did !vote in that AfD to delete the article. I've nominated many footballer articles for deletion over the years, and voted in many other AfDs (see this). Yes, there are many footballer articles that need improving and many that cannot be improved enough to meet our notability standards. Jogurney (talk) 17:53, 14 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete (EC). None of the sources above contribute to GNG, which is required for sportspeople. Jogurney is correct in guessing the Arga-Mag source is just facts scraped from the web; they have hundreds of these "biographies" (see the one on Taylor Lautner) derived from news aggregators and other wikis. Not RS. The Titrebartar source has a lot of sentences repeating the same routine non-encyclopedic information (about him being benched) and then a similar wiki-like "biography", so this shouldn't count toward GNG either. The rest of the references are trivial mentions and stats, which are not and never have been sufficient for NSPORT. Most of the keep !voters here seem either unaware of WP:NSPORTS2022 or belong to a cohort of editors who actively refuse to acknowledge the global consensus at every footballer AfD. JoelleJay (talk) 22:28, 13 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

 Comment: we can't have one policy and Double standard for similar articles. Who determines whether articles resources are sufficient or not for passing wp:GNG? (My speech is general). for this article we have refs from Varzesh 3, Tasnim News Agency, Hamshahri, Fars News Agency and many others that are wp:RS--Miha2020 (talk) 19:11, 14 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The existence of other poorly-sourced stubs on non-notable athletes does not mean the community has decided they should be standalone articles, it just means they haven't been evaluated yet. And it doesn't matter that a subject is covered by RS; what is important is that those RS provide significant, independent, secondary coverage. Standard transactional reports (signings, contract changes, coaching hires, etc.) are routine (see WP:NOTNEWS), are generally derived straight from press releases (not independent), and the info they contain generally does not amount to SIGCOV anyway, and thus they do not count towards GNG. JoelleJay (talk) 20:28, 14 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
no that's not right. what do you want from footballer? what should they do? or what should footballer do to be notable? don't point unrelated WP. It takes hours and a lot of energy to create an article, but commenting for deletion is always easy. i saw you just created 1 article for many years (that was on 2010). that's not good news. Miha2020 (talk) 22:58, 18 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
"That's not right"? How can you claim to know what the notability standards are for footballers when you've only participated in 7 AfDs?
The NSPORTS2022 RfC was very clear that at least one source of SIGCOV in SIRS be cited in the article for it be in mainspace, even when notability isn't challenged. The consensus across hundreds of footballer AfDs has been that ROUTINE coverage, as described in NBASIC and NOTNEWS, does not count towards GNG. And there is nothing a footballer can "do" to be notable--the presumption of GNG from playing in pro leagues was also eliminated in the RfC, although NSPORT has always required demonstration of GNG eventually--the only thing that confers notability is multiple pieces of SIGCOV in SIRS. Voria Ghafouri, for example, has received plenty of coverage for both his football achievements and for his protests against Iran's misogynist stadium policies. JoelleJay (talk) 01:48, 19 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
i have created 55 (non-deleted) articles in 2 years but you only 1 in 15 years! Otherwise, participation in AfDs does not bring experience! that's different between us, i am not only fluent in wp:football but also in wp:NSPORT. Do not make the discussion personal. we have wp:N for each field (every one must pass his/her field only) so for footballers like aria barzegar that played in 2 professional leagues and 3 tournament 2018 AFC U-16 Championship squads and 2019 Granatkin Memorial and CAFA Junior Championship and also in junior,cadet, youth and senior for Iran national football team. that's enough. your today's edit in Voria Ghafouri can't effect on his notability. he has spoke about those issues you said are in last 4-5 years but his article created in 2010 but These are the margins of football, not the original! i can point many sites that has Barzegar's bio on their pages but wikipedia is not Yellow magazine! Miha2020 (talk) 17:50, 19 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep He played in fully professional leagues and also played one match for the national team of his country, that's notable enough. Sports2021 (talk) 23:44, 16 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    @Sports2021, that is an invalid argument as we have explicitly deprecated all participation-based criteria for athlete notability and added the requirement that at least one source of SIRS SIGCOV must be cited in the article. JoelleJay (talk) 02:02, 17 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Weak Keep - Have found plenty of coverage... a few sources are questionable but I think it easily has enough to meet WP:GNG JojoMN1987 (talk) 14:33, 18 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    Which coverage did you find? JoelleJay (talk) 17:58, 18 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    Do not impose your opinion on others. you said your cm and wait for admin. What insistence do you have to challenge the opinion of others? (Because it is against your opinion?) Miha2020 (talk) 23:00, 18 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    How is asking for a link to coverage someone said exists "imposing my opinion on others"? JoelleJay (talk) 01:49, 19 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    i mean all of your contributions here. Do not make the discussion busy and long. Let the admins decide for the conclusion. please don't reply anymore. Miha2020 (talk) 17:54, 19 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
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