Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Antulio Segarra

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus. Sandstein 07:02, 16 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Antulio Segarra

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It's well-written and ~~well-referenced~~, but verifiability is not the same thing as notability. The claim for notability here is that he was the first Puerto Rican to achieve a certain military rank. No matter how well-referenced the assertion, I just don't think that's enough to meet WP notability standards. Compare this to a little-known military figure who actually is notable, such as Frederick Funston, who captured Aguinaldo and tried to keep San Francisco from burning down after the 1906 quake--that is notability. I just don't think Antulio Segarra has it. Qworty (talk) 19:40, 8 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, your argument is self-contradictory. WP:NOTABILITY has five points in its guidelines, of which this article meets at least three ("Reliable", "Sources" and "Independent of the subject"). - Caribbean~H.Q. 21:32, 8 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Note - The nomination statement is misleading. The article makes no mention of the subject being the first Puerto Rican Colonel. It is not about the subjects rank as the nominator claims. It is about the subject being the first Puerto Rican in history to command a U.S. Army Regiment. Tony the Marine (talk) 06:32, 9 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Keep - He wasn't the first Puerto Rican to reach the rank of Colonel, there is no notability in that, he was, however the first of his people to command a Regular United States Army Regiment, which in itself was an accomplishment at the time considering that he was Hispanic. He was also the Military Aide to the Military Governor of Puerto Rico Theodore Roosevelt, Jr. Tony the Marine (talk) 20:54, 8 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This debate has been included in the list of Puerto Rico-related deletion discussions. -- Jmundo (talk) 03:13, 9 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Delete how is being "the first of his people to command a Regular United States Army Regiment" more notable than " the first Puerto Rican to reach the rank of Colonel,"?? DGG ( talk ) 04:24, 9 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Comment - What is the notability in reaching the rank of Colonel? That is why the nominator nominated the article for AfD in the first place, which is a misleading to say the least. The article clearly states that his notability is due to the fact that he became the "first" Puerto Rican Colonel and the first Puerto Rican period to command a United States Army Regiment (3 Battalions), something that no other Puerto Rican before him had ever done, making him one of the highest ranking ethnic officers at that time in the United States history, when racial intergration in the armed forces wasn't even considered, is notable. Tony the Marine (talk) 06:07, 9 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Keep His accomplishments within the historical context of his time are "worthy of notice". --Jmundo (talk) 04:48, 9 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Speedy Keep and close - Proper established AfD procedure was not followed.

1. The nominator failed to notify the creator of the article of his/her intentions.

2. The nomination creates a misconception that the article and the AfD is about a person who reached the rank of Colonel, which per se would not be notable and thereby influence "delete" votes on said misconception. The article clearly states in it's introduction the following: "Colonel Antulio Segarra (January 20, 1906 - September 14, 1999), was a United States Army officer who in 1943 became the first Puerto Rican in history to command a Regular Army Regiment. Segarra served as Military Aide to the Military Governor of Puerto Rico Theodore Roosevelt, Jr. and during World War II commanded the 65th Infantry Regiment." Antonio Martin (talk) 07:11, 9 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

You are putting words in my mouth to falsely accuse me of bad faith. Please read the nomination again. The word "colonel" never appears in it. The term used is a "certain military rank." I had no intention of obfuscating the fact that he "commanded the 65th Infantry Regiment," because that fact is itself not notable. Are we now to have 64 articles on the commanders of the 1st through 64th Infantry Regiments? Articles on every aide-de-camp to territorial governors? That is why Segarra is not notable. I'm all for including more articles about notable people from underrepresented ethnic groups, but first the individual has to do something that is notable. Where is the threshold here? The first person of such-and-such a group to command a squad? Nobody who has voted yes has demonstrated where that line is drawn. Nor has it been demonstrated what level of bureaucrat, military or otherwise, who has worked under a territorial governor is notable. I would hazard that exactly zero of them is notable. Instead what we have is the name "Theodore Roosevelt" thrown around, as though an extremely tenuous--so tenuous as to not exist--relationship to a U.S. President will confer notability. Notability is not conferred simply because someone works in a non-notable capacity for the son of a former President. What's next, the first member of such-and-such a group to become a high-school principal? Being a high-school principal is itself not notable, so it doesn't matter who becomes one; in the same way, since being the commander of a regiment is in itself not notable, it doesn't matter who becomes one. Qworty (talk) 15:47, 9 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Keep. Article apparently satisfies the GNG as it stands; likely to be substantial additional offline sourcing (eg, Google Books results, where several significant non-English-language sources appear to be available); invalid deletion rationale -- being the first do something specific is often recognized as notable, even though the general class isn't -- climbing a tall mountain isn't itself notable, but being the first to climb Mount Everest is. Hullaballoo Wolfowitz (talk) 16:48, 9 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

False analogy. Being the first to climb Mount Everest is notable, as there can be only one such person and Mount Everest is itself notable; however, being a regimental commander and an aide-de-camp are not in themselves notable. Clearly, being a regimental commander and a minor military bureaucrat are not the equivalent of being the first person to climb Mount Everest. Would an article on the first Puerto Rican to climb Mount Everest survive AfD? I doubt it. Qworty (talk) 17:04, 9 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

No more false than your "high school principal" analogy. Given the long and well-documented history of legal discrimination against ethnic minorities in the United States, it should be clear to reasonable people that often overcoming such entrenched barriers is no less notable than climbing Mount Everest, perhaps doing it under sniper fire. Hullaballoo Wolfowitz (talk) 17:51, 9 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The article does not assert that Segarra suffered discriminatory abuse in the U.S. military, much less that he suffered such abuse and then challenged it, or that he became an internationally recognized test case, such as James Meredith at the University of Mississippi. If you have evidence of what you're saying, by all means present it and cite it according to WP:RS and WP:V. If you find such evidence, and perhaps attendant press coverage, he would then be notable, of course. For all we know, Segarra achieved his promotions by catering to the white-male power structure that dominated the U.S. Army at that time, rather than by challenging it and becoming the target of racist threats and ridicule, as Meredith was. In fact, given the pervasiveness of institutionalized racism at the time, the former is much more likely than the latter. Either way, notability on the basis of discrimination must be documented, not merely asserted. Qworty (talk) 18:13, 9 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Keep, regardless of what he did, he's received enough significant coverage in reliable sources to pass general notability. Notability doesn't require doing something amazing, but the first Puerto Rican to climb Everest would easily be notable if he received sufficient significant coverage. Nyttend (talk) 18:46, 9 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Comment. Verifiability is not the same thing as notability. See WP:REDFLAG. I haven't seen a single source that says that Segarra received press attention or scholarly attention for being the first Puerto Rican to command a regiment. It is an extraordinary claim to suggest that he received this journalistic or scholarly attention, and it would require specific sourcing to verify it. The reason the sources don't exist is because it never happened--he never became a test case. The sources show that he received only incidental attention for being a regimental commander, and no attention whatsoever for breaking an ethnic barrier. To combine two unrelated facts--being Puerto Rican and being a regimental commander--to create something that is unsourced for notability ("first Puerto Rican regimental commander") is nothing more than WP:OR. Qworty (talk) 19:14, 9 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Not a single acceptable source here. Have a look at the significant coverage criterion for notability at WP:GNG: "Significant coverage" means that sources address the subject directly in detail, and no original research is needed to extract the content. Significant coverage is more than a trivial mention. The argument for the notability of Antulio Segarra is that he was the first Puerto Rican to become a regimental commander. However, not a single one of the six sources proffered satisfies the "significant coverage" required for this assertion. In fact, five of the sources given do not even mention his being the first Puerto Rican regimental commander. To wit:

The first source given [1] is nothing more than a message-board exchange between the article's author and another individual. As such, it does not constitute WP:RS; instead, it is WP:OR. In any case, it does not state that Segarra was the first Puerto Rican regimental commander or that he received significant (or any) journalistic or scholarly attention for being such.

The second source given [2] is the only source that even mentions that Segarra was the first Puerto Rican regimental commander, but even this is only a website and therefore does not satisfy WP:RS. In any case, this one mention is not "significant coverage" as required by WP:GNG. And, of course, it does not state that Segarra received significant (or any) journalistic or scholarly attention during his lifetime or afterward.

The third source given [3] is the same website and mentions only that Segarra was a commander, nothing more.

The fourth source given [4] is a webpage that does not even mention Segarra!

The fifth source given [5] mentions only that Segarra was a troop commander. In any case, the source is a vanity-press book produced by the notorious iUniverse, which means that there were no editorial standards employed, and no fact-checking whatsoever. Vanity-press and self-published books fail WP:BK, WP:SELFPUB, and WP:RS.

The sixth source given [6] merely states that Serrago was buried.

Thus, there is nothing whatsoever in any of the sources that constitutes the "significant coverage" as required by WP:GNG, nothing that states that Segarra received significant (or any) journalistic or scholarly attention during his lifetime or afterward for being "the first Puerto Rican regimental commander." Instead, what we have here is WP:OR, with the "notability" arising from nothing more than the article editor's conflation of the fact that Segarra was Puerto Rican AND a regimental commander, very weakly supported by a single webpage reference that he was the first Puerto Rican in that position. This is not, by any stretch of the imagination, what notability verification or "significant coverage" are all about. What we need is something like a newspaper article from 1943 that says "first Puerto Rican becomes regimental commander," or a legitimately published series of books that tell us the same thing. Qworty (talk) 20:23, 9 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Requesting that nominator withdrawals AfD - Nominator scratched out the "well-referenced" in his nomination which seems as a to contradiction. It is difficult to obtain newspaper articles from newspaper that went defunct before the Internet age. However, if you want a reliable verifiable source about Segarra being the first Puerto Rican commander of a U.S. Army Regiment, then here you have it. Colonel Gilberto Villahermosa, is a respected and notable military historian and author, who was the Chief of the Combined Joint Task Force Coordination Branch at NATO’s Regional Headquarters Allied Forces North, Brunssum, The Netherlands and is currently assigned as the senior defense representative with the American embassy in the Republic of Yemen. Army remembers All-Hispanic regiment. His articles have appeared in a number of military publications and his history of the 65th Infantry Regiment in Korea has been published by the Army Center of Military History in 2003. Here is the source with his statement: Commands by Col, Villahermosa. Your original claim is that Segarra is not notable because "certain military rank", you seem to confuse a Regimental Commander with a rank. They are not the same, a Regiment is a unit of ground forces, consisting of two or more battalions or battle groups, a headquarters unit, and certain supporting units and he was the first Puerto Rican with that responsibility. Please accept the fact that there is a difference between a rank and being the first person of an ethnic group to command an American Army Regiment and withdrawal this nomination. Tony the Marine (talk) 23:30, 9 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Comment. Thanks for the links, which I've now had the chance to review. I scoured the first one Army remembers All-Hispanic regiment several times, but am unable to find Segarra mentioned anywhere on that page. Are you sure that is the correct URL? I was surprised when I opened the second link Commands by Col, Villahermosa, because it is one that has already been identified as problematic. See WP:SPS. If Segarra were in fact the first Puerto Rican regimental commander, and if that in itself were a notable fact, than that information should be readily available somewhere other than a personal website. And perhaps it is available elsewhere--but we haven't seen it yet. Either way, the point is a moot one, as is the distinction between a colonel and a regimental commander, since neither one confers notability. How can Segarra be notable for doing something that is not itself notable? That doesn't make sense. As it stands, the entire article is very flimsily supported on a single instance of WP:SPS. I believe that particular guideline is extremely important and should be adhered to as much as possible, since blogs and personal websites can too often be used for purposes of character assassination, and in fact they have been used for those purposes on Wikipedia in the past. It makes me sick whenever I see anything like that and can't get it reverted because there are admins who don't accept the value of the WP:SPS guideline. So it's best just to follow the guideline, recognizing that personal websites are not RS. As for withdrawing the AfD nomination, since nothing new has been presented that supports Segarra's notability as per WP guidelines, we have to wait and see if supporting evidence from RS shows up before the AfD expiration. I've been looking hard, and haven't found anything yet. I assume others are looking too. If the evidence doesn't appear, then the article should be deleted. Qworty (talk) 01:01, 10 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Re:Comment, The link Army remembers All-Hispanic regiment is a reference which shows that Colonel Gilberto Villahermosa is a respected and notable military historian and author, who in turn stated that Segarra "first" Puerto Rican Colonel and the first Puerto Rican period to command a United States Army Regiment (3 Battalions), something that no other Puerto Rican before him had ever done. This makes him one of the highest ranking ethnic officers at that time in the United States history, when racial intergration in the armed forces wasn't even considered. He is cited here: Commands by Col, Villahermosa, which is not his personal website. Not only is his statement cited, but his reliable sources are also porvided in the site. Villahermosa is a reliable source and is cited as such. Another thing, coverage of his career where his historical naming is mentioned was featured in the Puerto Rican Newspaper "El Mundo", April 1, 1954 (Even though I have a copy, unfortunately the newspaper is no longer in circulation) "Segarra fue condecorado con la Legion de Merito", pg.4, number 9967. Tony the Marine (talk) 01:13, 10 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Not Convinced. So the requirement of "Significant coverage" now means one short mention on one website? We all know that isn't true. Qworty (talk) 15:33, 10 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Comment - I will not make an attempt to try convince you because it is obvious that that is not going to happen no matter what. There are many historical events, in this case Segarra becoming the first of his people make history by becoming the "First" Puerto Rican regimental commander of a United States Army Regiment, which do not receive significant media coverage for whatever reason, thereby those events are often omitted from history books and fall into the cracks of time to be forgotten. His is not the only example, do you really think that when Frederick C. Branch who became the first African-American officer of the United States Marine Corps, that it was covered by the media? No, it wasn't, as a matter of fact he received little attention until after his death because of the race issue involved, but nonetheless, Clinton is notable for being the first of his race same as Segarra is for being the first in his ethnic group to accomplish what he did at a time when such events where almost unheard of in the United States. Therefore, my friend lack of media news coverage does not make a person or event less notable. Now, that "website" may bother you, because it cites the statement made by Colonel Gilberto Villahermosa who is a respected and notable military historian and author and therefore a relible source and I quote Villahermosa's words:
"The month prior, Colonel Antulio Segarra had assumed command of the regiment. His appointment was a historical first for the United States Army, and the regiment, Segarra was the first Puerto Rican regular Army officer to command a regular Army Regiment."
I will no longer indulge in any type of debate with you over this. Thank you.Tony the Marine (talk) 01:04, 11 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Comment. Well, if it makes you feel any better, I think the closing admin will probably allow the article to be kept. If so, it won't be the first time I've seen every single relevant WP policy thrown straight out the window just because an editor who is very well-liked--and even rightly well-liked--decided to build an entire argument on a single sentence found on a website. At least this time nobody is being hurt. You are obviously a person of high integrity, and you have an excellent reputation around here, which I think is well-earned, so the only thing I'm going to ask is this: The next time I see some rogue admin throwing every relevant policy and guideline straight down the toilet just so somebody can be smeared, libeled, and defamed, based on nothing more solid than what some person full of hate wrote on a website--which is then trumpeted as the purest of RS--I'm going to come to you and ask you to help me defend that person. Qworty (talk) 05:34, 11 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.