Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Anatoly Biryukov

Add links
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus. The article has been substantially rewritten and sourced after most of the "delete" opinions were offered. If it is still considered difficult to verify or non-notable, that should be discussed in a new nomination.  Sandstein  07:14, 11 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Anatoly Biryukov[edit]

Anatoly Biryukov (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log · Stats)
(Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)

Only reference is one foreign language weblink to a non-reliable source. An article needs better sourcing to meet criminal notability standards, especially when it makes such horrible claims about someone. This article was previously tagged as a possible hoax by another editor. Andrew327 15:48, 2 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Russia-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 16:48, 2 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This debate has been included in the list of Crime-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 16:48, 2 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This debate has been included in the list of People-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 16:48, 2 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete Hoax or not, when no sources exist an article shouldn't have been made. Beerest355 Talk 18:08, 2 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete. The sole reference cited is not remotely a reliable source. References to anyone by this name in English are essentially nil; Russian language references (as Анатолий Иванович Бирюков) typically share the same wording as the reference and clearly originate from the same initial source. In fact, I am not convinced the person in this article existed at all. There are considerable reference to an Alexsandr Biryukov, who shot his commanding officer to death after some two years of sexual harassment; he was sentenced to death, but that sentence was ultimately reduced, and finally pardoned. He is most certainly not the person this article describes! On the other hand, the name Анатолий Иванович Бирюков does appear in the 2000 work of fiction Остаться в живых (Staying Alive) by Ян Валетов (Ian Jacks). In all, I'm not able to say with certainty whether this is a hoax or not, although the evidence makes that likely, but I can say that it does not remotely approach the obligations for inclusion of these sort of claims. Squeamish Ossifrage (talk) 18:27, 2 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    • It's pretty clear you don't understand a word of Russian and are using Google Translate, because you have just translated Valetov (a personal name) as "Jacks", which was pretty amusing, and is exactly what Google Translate does with this name. Egads, beware teh wiki experts ... Someone not using his real name (talk) 22:45, 3 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
      • You are correct that I do not speak Russian, but that doesn't make me incapable of evaluating the reliability of sources, nor searching for references. I remain convinced that murders.ru is not in any sense a reliable source, and the confirmation below that they intentionally doctor information (purportedly as a copyright trap) only reinforces that opinion. Likewise, I am dubious about citing any true crime semi-documentary as a reliable source, regardless of the language involved. On the other hand, while Фёдор Ибатович Раззаков evidently has something of a reputation for yellow journalism, I don't see any compelling reason to question the veracity of his book. Primarily on the grounds of that source and the cleanup that's been made to the article, I'm striking my objection. Squeamish Ossifrage (talk) 16:03, 5 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
        • Thank you. Even I have difficulty finding additional references for this (that would pass WP:RS beyond the shadow of a doubt). Most of the Russian books and [print] newspapers, especially older ones, are not indexed by Google in any way. I doubt that murders.ru and the 2008 book are the first print accounts of this. User:Зейнал has now found an entry in an on-line database (indexing the proceedings of the Supreme Soviet of the RSFSR) of Biryukov's appeal of his death sentence. It's a 71-page document according to this database, but the full text is not on-line. But I think we have to contend ourselves with sources that are only somewhat reliable for the time being. Otherwise we'd have to delete articles like Vera Renczi, which basically have zero truly reliable sources [confirming the case], but are supported WP:GNG-wise by dozens of Western "true crime" books. At least in Biryukov's case, we can confirm from primary, official sources that he existed and was sentenced to death. (Also, Biryukov's name is pretty common in Russian. It's like searching for a "John Wolf" or something similarly common in English.) Someone not using his real name (talk) 14:53, 6 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete: A hoax. He murdered five people in Russia's capital city, but no coverage can be found. That is highly unlikely. SL93 (talk) 23:06, 2 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete: Lack of ANY coverage in reliable independent secondary sources. Zip, zero, nada, zilch. Dominus Vobisdu (talk) 01:07, 3 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • It is not hoax: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H_4dNPMusyg. True crime film. Зейнал (talk) 17:55, 3 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep This is not a hoax. The 42-miute NTV documentary, while being shot in a fairly annoying true crime fashion, has an interview with his former lawyer etc. Biryukov's father was an army general and hero of the Soviet Union; see clip around 37:00 [1]. It's little surprising this story didn't get out to the West back then. Not having coverage in English is not a valid reason to delete. Someone not using his real name (talk) 21:31, 3 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    • Are there any reliable sources to pass WP:V and WP:N, though? The Youtube clip won't work as (unless that's the official NTV channel?) it fails WP:ELNEVER #1. - The Bushranger One ping only 22:58, 3 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
      • Don't cite the clip, cite the documentary then. ~Charmlet -talk- 23:29, 3 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
        • Even if it were the official channel, it wouldn't mean much. The show is obviously produced for entertainment purposes, and not as a genuine attempt at investigative journalism. I wouldn't rely on it for even basic information. Dominus Vobisdu (talk) 23:40, 3 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
          • One could even ask if the show itself might be fictional in its entirety. - The Bushranger One ping only 23:42, 3 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
            • One doesn't have to go that far. It's enough to assume that the story was simplified and spiced up to suite consumer taste, which is reasonable, considering that the viewers of this show are probably not a discriminating lot as far as factual accuracy is concerned. Dominus Vobisdu (talk) 23:57, 3 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete, no reliable sources about this guy. On a Russian forum people discuss the info and write that there were no such court hearings in Moscow. The NTV documentary I suppose is based on some facts but they maybe twisted in order to entertain the reader. The second option will be to write an article about the documentary (although this the 206th episode of a TV serial so I am not sure it is that notable) and Redurect the info to the article. Alex Bakharev (talk) 00:32, 4 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete - Not verifiable. Don't forget to remove from List of Russian serial killers. NickCT (talk) 00:45, 4 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment - "Анатолий Иванович Бирюков" охотник за младенцами searches his name and role as "hunter of the babies" but delivers only a few hits, including a superwiki.ru and social networking sites. So there's not much beyond the documentary ... and right now Russia is the best market in half a century for crude anti-gay propaganda... Wnt (talk) 01:07, 4 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    • I suppose we can say that given the anti-pedophile hysteria in America, no source from that country is ever reliable on the topic, IF we were to user your logic. This guy killed infants, of both sexes, so I fail to see how your comment about gays has much relevance here. Someone not using his real name (talk) 05:03, 4 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
      • One of the Google-translated pages called him a "homosexual" in the title, like that was the main thing about him, but my understanding here is limited - I should leave the argument to the people below who understand what's being said. Wnt (talk) 16:04, 4 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
        • The murders.ru article does not say Biryukov was gay, nor does it discuss homosexuality in relation to him. That article discusses several other Soviet serial criminals (and not necessarily murderers); coverage of Biryukov actually begins on the bottom of the previous page of the multi-page article. What you saw there was discussion of a serial rapist by the name of Sergei Dmitrievich Grigoriev (Григорьев, Сергей Дмитриевич) who operated in Leningrad not Moscow and targeted 13-15 year old girls; it's only there that the article says something about homosexuality possibly having been a factor for Grigoriev because he only sought anal and oral sex (but not vaginal), thus it was hypothesized he was looking for "passive homosexual partners". Whether that theory made any sense or not is of no relevance in this AfD. Someone not using his real name (talk) 20:37, 4 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete as failing verifiability, this is core to the project, readers have to know what they read is true, willing to change position if a WP:RS can be found. LGA talkedits 01:21, 4 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • The video is legit found on official web site as well. Interviews with enough eye witnesses therein to make this hard to doubt on the basics. IF you're after hoaxes, you may want to start with truly implausible claims. Oh wait, those have been repeated by dozens of Western "true" crime publications, copying from each other, even where there's no record of the events in the original country. Someone not using his real name (talk) 04:59, 4 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Here you can read the official episode summary, which includes the list of experts and eyewitnesses interviewed in the footage:

206. ПУСТАЯ КОЛЯСКА

1977 год. Москва. Роковая беспечность — оставить коляску на улице и уйти на минутку, и... потерять ребенка навсегда. Кто он, охотник за младенцами? Его ищет милиция и сами родители. История самого засекреченного маньяка. Одна из самых ужасных криминальных историй советского времени. Участвуют: Лада Бондаренко, очевидец событий; Борис Шехтман, в 1977г. инспектор уголовного розыска 132 о/м г.Москвы; Кирилл Барышников, очевидец событий; Владимир Калиниченко, следователь по особо важным делам при Генеральном прокуроре СССР; Сергей Каграманов, сосед; Гульзиган Ананьева, мать Юлии Ананьевой; Борис Ривкин, в 1977г. адвокат; Виктор Мамохин, отец Наташи Мамохиной; Валентина Мамохина, мать Наташи Мамохиной.

Someone not using his real name (talk) 05:34, 4 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

  • Delete as a hoax. Carrite (talk) 05:35, 4 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • The inspector interviewed, Борис Шехтман, can be confirmed from official sources (copy of Duma documents) to exist and have an age matching his appearance in the video [2]: "Шехтман Борис Иегович, 1954 г.р., сстарший инспектор штаба УВД СЗАО города Москвы". Someone not using his real name (talk) 05:57, 4 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Борис Ривкин, the defense lawyer, also seems to exist [3] What you guys are basically saying is that there guys are liars or have all been impersonated on a mainstream TV channel. Not plausible in my view. Someone not using his real name (talk) 06:08, 4 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Another expert interviewed in this episode is Владимир Иванович Калиниченко, although he doesn't say much about the case itself. Someone not using his real name (talk) 08:55, 4 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Someone graciously contributed a link to what turns out is a book by a Russian journalist, covering this

Раззаков Фёдор Ибатович [in Russian] (2008). Бандиты семидесятых, 1970—1979. Эксмо. pp. 370–371. ISBN 5699271422.

If you're having trouble getting the book, and don't mind the "samizdat" (read pirated) version of the book for WP:V purposes, you can check out the pages here: [4] [5] Otherwise, the book is held by US Library of Congress and U Penn library among others [6], so you can go check it out in the US too, or even request it via ILL in that country. Someone not using his real name (talk) 07:17, 4 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The book recounts in some detail only the first two of the baby kidnappings-murders (one on Sep 16 and the other on Sep 19, 1977), then says without any details that there were three more before a failed attempt lead to his capture. The book does not say anything about his father though. Someone not using his real name (talk) 08:01, 4 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I can clarify. I wrote to the site murders.ru. Here's what they wrote (in Russian):

http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9E%D0%B1%D1%81%D1%83%D0%B6%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BD%D0%B8%D0%B5:%D0%91%D0%B8%D1%80%D1%8E%D0%BA%D0%BE%D0%B2,_%D0%90%D0%BD%D0%B0%D1%82%D0%BE%D0%BB%D0%B8%D0%B9_%D0%9D%D0%B8%D0%BA%D0%BE%D0%BB%D0%B0%D0%B5%D0%B2%D0%B8%D1%87Зейнал (talk) 14:44, 4 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Site Murders.ru specifically distorts information to combat plagiarism. The special star (*) in the corner of a page talking about it http://www.murders.ru/internet_versya.html. Зейнал (talk) 14:47, 4 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

If I may clarify what this is about.
  • On the forum which User:Alex Bakharev mentioned above, a number of people noted the discrepancy between the family and initial arrest photos in which Anatoly Biryukov appears on NTV and the photo (priorly) circulating on the internet, which is apparently also him but shortly before his execution. I agree too that the discrepancy is not that big. In the NTV photos Anatoly Biryukov appears clearly obese (photos go down to his beer gut). It's not impossible that he lost two dozen kilograms between his arrest (Oct. 1977) and execution (1979). I doubt they would have treated him very well in a Soviet prison. Anyway, there is no freely available photo include here, so this dispute is not particularly relevant to the English Wikipedia.
  • Another discrepancy noted on that Russian forum was that the middle/father name of Biryukov differs between NTV and murders.ru. Алексей Пшунетлёв, the author of murders.ru (who has also published some books on other famous murders in the USSR, but I don't know if any of his books cover Biryukov) has clarified on the ruwiki talk page that he changed the middle name of Biryukov on his website in order to "catch plagiarists". Indeed Biryukov's middle name is not given in the 2008 book by Раззаков (this you can verify easily) or in the NTV show, as far as I can remember (although the latter discusses his father). Again not an issue because until someone thought to copy that info blindly here [7] (note that it doesn't match the name as give in Latin transliteration).
  • Finally, Алексей Пшунетлёв complained that the NTV show omitted to mention or discuss the sexual aspect of the murder-kidnappings. (I can confirm this is the case, after watching the show.) This aspect is not mentioned in the 2008 book by Раззаков either. I suppose this is one issue on which we may need attribution "according to Alexei Pshunetlev..." Пшунетлёв also berated NTV for mentioning that the father of Biryukov was a war-decorated Soviet general, saying they shouldn't have done that. Пшунетлёв challenged the relevance, not the factual validity, of this info. The NTV show, in the last few minutes does suggest that Biryukov father's public image may have been a reason why the Soviet authorities have done their best to avoid publicizing the case. (In general the NTV show has been criticized by sources such as Sovetskaya Rossiya for its alleged "anti-Soviet" stance and for "harming Russia's image". You can read that on the show page in Russian Wikipedia -- you may need to look through its history tab if you are logged in, the fringe criticism was removed somewhat recently, but those edits have not been approved.)
  • In 2010, some anonymous guy with the handle "onalimo" said (on the Russian forum indicated by User:Alex Bakharev) that he (onalimo) sent an official request to the "Сербского" institute where the mental health of Biryukov was allegedly examined (the 2008 book mentions this too "Поскольку зверства, которые совершил Бирюков, нормальному человеку не совершить, маньяка отправили на психиатрическую экспертизу в Институт имени Сербского.") before his trial. "Onalimo" said he received an official reply that there are no records of the examination. He did not provide any concrete evidence to support his claim (like a photo of a letter). Also, "onalimo" has two posts total on that forum, both of them in that thread. Even if it is true that there are no records of Biryukov's mental health exam at that particular institute I don't think this is some smoking gun that the rest of the sources are making a hoax. (The institute appears to be the Serbsky Center. The 2012 NTV show includes interviews with two eye witnesses, the mother of one of the victims, two state investigators, and Biryukov's former lawyer, but no mental health experts, so the NTV show crew may have been unable to track down any such mental health records of Biryukov as well.)
Someone not using his real name (talk) 19:02, 4 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

1. http://www.murders.ru/USSR_serial_killer_history_5.html

2. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H_4dNPMusyg

3. http://www.x-libri.ru/elib/razkv000/00000370.htm (Razzakov)

3 links. Зейнал (talk) 16:03, 5 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Last link. It is the site of petitions for clemency on death penalty. Here you can see the petition Biryukova, Anatoly Nikolaevich, who was sentenced to death. On site technical problems right now, but through the cache, you can see everything.

1

2

Зейнал (talk) 17:07, 5 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comment. Even though this article appears not to be an outright hoax, there are concerns about verifiability and notability that keep me from changing my vote from delete. Andrew327 20:27, 5 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment: The same with me. Basically, adding all the sources together does not provide enough reliably sourced information to write a free-standing article. Seriously doubt the notability of the subject as well. Dominus Vobisdu (talk) 20:51, 5 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Agreed. There are still do many issues at play, including synth. Andrew327 21:55, 5 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The article as it stands now lists multiple substantial, reliable and independent sources, which should be enough to meet WP:GNG. I assume that User:Someone not using his real name used only the information available in those sources, without attempts of WP:synthesis (Btw, Someone's research and work on the article is exemplary: competent and professional). But I respect that our opinions may differ. --Vejvančický (talk / contribs) 06:32, 6 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
@User:Andrewman327 What WP:SYNTH? Can you point out a specific example? SYNTH prohibits using sources for different facts to draw some conclusion not found in the sources. It doesn't prohibit using multiple sources for the same facts. There is complete agreement between the two (print/web) sources cited in the article that the first two kidnappings occurred on Sep 16 and Sep 19 respectively. There are however some minor differences between these two sources in how other dates are given. For example, murders.ru gives the date as when the body of the 2nd victim was found as "mid-October", while the book says Oct. 17. The other way around, murdrers.ru says the attempt in Chekov was foiled on Oct 21, while the book says only it was in October. But these minor differences are actually a good thing, it shows these sources are independent of each other; they didn't just copy one another. As for the locations, there is complete agreement between the two print/web sources that the 2nd kidnapping occurred at "Children's World", on Prospekt Mira. The NTV even filmed at this location (which is now a different type of store.) As for the location of the first kidnapping, the book says it happened at an infant formula store on "Biryuzov street" ("улице Бирюзова"). And murders.ru puts the disappearance at a store of that same kind on Marshal Biruzov street. If you can find another "Biryuzov street" in Moscow, let me know. The book doesn't say precisely on which street is the building in which the body of the baby was later found on that day. (And neither does our article. I conservatively left this out.) However, both murders.ru and the NTV agree this was also on Marshal Biryuzov street; NTV even filmed outside and inside the building. We can further discuss these issues on the talk page. But it's unreasonable to ask the article to be deleted because of things like this, per "AfD is not clean-up" (WP:SURMOUNTABLE). If you want more precise footnotes, I can accommodate that, but the article will probably have footnotes after every few words in that case. This is rather unreasonable. There are plenty of FA articles which don't have that. Someone not using his real name (talk) 10:17, 6 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
Retrieved from "https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Anatoly_Biryukov&oldid=1091642390"