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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was Delete due to the lack of evidence in reliable sources that he has played in the Nippon Professional Baseball in order to satisfy the notability guideline. A strict vote count might lead to a no consensus but several keep opinions were based on him playing in Japan which the discussion further on makes clear has not been verified. When/If he does play in that league consensus may change on having an article on him. Davewild (talk) 11:49, 21 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Alvis Ojeda[edit]

Alvis Ojeda (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View log)

Never played at the highest level in his sport (never made it to Major League Baseball) and hasn't received significant media coverage, thus not meeting the WP:BIO/WP:ATHLETE notability standard. brewcrewer (yada, yada) 17:47, 12 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I would also note that there are quite a number of secondary sources which discuss this player: [1], and he has played for the Navegantes del Magallanes in the Venezuelan Professional Baseball League which is the top league in his native country.[2] Kinston eagle (talk) 19:12, 12 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
What general notability guideline doesn't he meet? "A person is presumed to be notable if he or she has been the subject of published secondary source material which is reliable, intellectually independent, and independent of the subject." He meets all that through the articles cited above. "If the depth of coverage is not substantial, then multiple independent sources may be needed to prove notability." He also has coverage from multiple sources - from multiple countries. The fact that he has met general notability guidelines was a given. The only question in my mind was whether he also lived up to the higher standards for notability imposed by the relevant wikiproject. In my opinion he does. Kinston eagle (talk) 20:52, 12 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • I've looked through the secondary sources from Google News that Kinston eagle linked to above, and I think it's a good example of how it can be misleading to rely on counts of hits. I didn't see any sources that provided information that could actually be used to expand the article; they were all either accounts of individual minor league games in which he played or articles with trivial mentions of him in a list of players. (I admit, however, that I was not able to read the Spanish-language articles.) Hence, these are the type of references that WP:BIO discusses when it says "trivial coverage of a subject by secondary sources may not be sufficient to establish notability." BRMo (talk) 03:29, 13 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • The WikiProject standards (Wikipedia:WikiProject Baseball#Players) are not intended to impose a higher or different standard; rather, they represent an attempt to apply the general notability standards to the special case of baseball, which has unique characteristics not found in most other professional sports. In particular, Minor League Baseball consists of leagues that are essentially training programs for Major League Baseball, and hence aren't quite the same as "fully professional" leagues in other sports. The WikiProject standards are based on the criteria that have been persuasive in past AfD decisions. BRMo (talk) 03:54, 13 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep per participation in top level professional leagues in Japan and Venezuela. Spanneraol (talk) 20:29, 12 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keepscases Keepscases (talk) 20:57, 12 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Close as bad nom because the standard for professional athletes is "played in a fully professional league" and that has been met. The "highest level" standard only applies to amateur athletes. There is no policy based justification for deletion presented by the nominator. Jim Miller (talk) 21:17, 12 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Firstly, "bad nom" is not a reason for the procedural close of an afd discussion. Secondly, the "played in a fully professional league" is obviously meant to be understood as connected to the second prong of WP:ATHLETE - "highest level." Otherwise, every single minor leaguer - since they play in a fully professional league - would be considered notable for Wikipedia notability purposes. --brewcrewer (yada, yada) 15:20, 13 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • I disagree that it is even possible to read WP:ATHLETE in the way you suggest. It contains 2 seperate and independant sentences - one relating to professionals and one relating to amateurs. And yes, I believe the guideline states that every member of a fully-professional league, including the AHL, NASCAR Nationwide Series, and Minor League Baseball is sufficiently notable for inclusion. I said close because the nom is inproper. Using Major League Baseball as the sole standard of inclusion for professionals is very US centric. I would support deleting if nobody adds reliable sources, as the article does continue to fail WP:V for nearly a year. Jim Miller (talk) 21:53, 14 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Is there any evidence that he's actually played even one game in Nippon Professional Baseball? I wasn't able to locate any site providing English-language season-to-date statistics, but this site provides box scores, and I didn't see his name in any of the Hanshin Tigers boxes. As has often been noted, minor leagues are on ambiguous ground regarding WP:ATHLETE, since modern minor leagues are basically training programs and reserve rosters for Major League Baseball. Because the Venezuelan Professional Baseball League is part of minor league baseball, I think it shares these concerns. However, if he's actually played at the highest level in Japan, I wouldn't have any problem with keeping the article. BRMo (talk) 22:35, 12 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
He is on their roster. Here is his page on their site: [3] Kinston eagle (talk) 01:29, 13 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, I saw that he was on their roster, but the Hanshin Tigers' roster appears to be very large (~70 players) and I'm guessing that there must be a smaller "active" roster. Appearing on a roster doesn't meet the notability criteria—both WP:ATHLETE and Wikipedia:WikiProject Baseball#Players require that a person actually plays at least one game at the specified level. BRMo (talk) 03:12, 13 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The Japanese League question is really irrelevant since he has played in the highest baseball league of his native land - Venezuela. Players who have played in the highest league of their homelands have always been considered notable on Wikipedia. See for example: Daniel Maddy-Weitzman and Roel de Mon. Kinston eagle (talk) 03:57, 13 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The Venezuelan League is part of Minor League Baseball and he played there while he was under a major league or minor league contract. Hence, my understanding is that he had to get his team's permission to play there and he was subject to the major league team's supervision. That seems more like a situation of training and development (i.e., minor leagues) than a fully professional league. Japan, on the other hand, is fully independent of Major League Baseball. BRMo (talk) 04:16, 13 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
......and there's no source that he even played in Venezuela. --brewcrewer (yada, yada) 04:25, 13 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Actually there is. I already gave it above, but here it is again: [4] Kinston eagle (talk) 12:21, 13 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Venezuelan Professional Baseball League, which apparently is his claim to notability, is the winter league of United States Minor league baseball as the article on the league clearly asserts. --brewcrewer (yada, yada) 15:07, 13 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
It's also the top-league in Venezuela which satisfies the guidelines. --Borgardetalk 05:59, 15 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The "Top league" was intended for the best baseball players in the country, not for the players that a minor league team in a different country decides to send to Venezuela to see if they can develope a change-up or play left field. This league is clearly not intended for notable baseball players. Why try to make a notability argument when he clearly isn't a notable baseball player?--brewcrewer (yada, yada) 06:26, 15 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Note: This debate has been included in the list of Japan-related deletion discussions. —brewcrewer (yada, yada) 01:58, 13 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep per various arguments already presented. ···日本穣? · Talk to Nihonjoe 03:59, 13 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete barring some evidence that he played in at least one game in a major league or other non trivial coverage. Beeblbrox (talk) 19:07, 13 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • The Japanese league would obviously confer notability and it's terribly US-centric to say otherwise. That said, if no appearances in Nippon Pro Baseball can be verified, then the article should be deleted. matt91486 (talk) 00:08, 14 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep Nippon Professional Baseball is notable, top level in Japan. Highest level does not mean Major League Baseball. It means a fully professional league, which NPB is. --Borgardetalk 10:13, 14 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete - WP:ATHLETE requires at least one game played at a "fully professional" level. Ojeda appears on the roster of the Hanshin Tigers, and if he had played for them I would have supported keeping this article. However, I still haven't seen any evidence that he's actually played in one of their games. Thus, his entire baseball experience is in minor leagues. Wikipedia:WikiProject Baseball#Players provides some criteria by which a minor league player might be considered notable, and he doesn't appear to meet any of them. The coverage of him in reliable sources that have been cited is mostly "trivial" (such as accounts of individual minor league games). Therefore, I don't see any basis in the guidelines for keeping this article. BRMo (talk) 21:14, 14 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you, that is pretty much what I was trying to say above, but I guess I wasn't clear enough. Beeblbrox (talk) 04:21, 15 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment. I find it very perplexing that editors would would search any nook and cranny to find some sort of quasi-argument that this person satisfies the notability guidelines. This guy clearly is not a notable person. He has not achieved anything substantial in his profession and nobody knows who he is. It's because of afd's like these where other editors are stumped when asked "If some baseball player who got a whiff of AAA is notable then why isn't this author/scientist/professor considered notable?"--brewcrewer (yada, yada) 06:18, 15 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • Well, I don't mean to say it controversially at all because I know you didn't mean it that way, but the phrasing of the AfD nom was very US-centric, which gave the impression that he might be notable through play in other countries. Other professional leagues that are the top leagues in their countries are notable. In this case, he doesn't have an appearance for Nippon Professional Baseball that I've seen verified yet, so it's a moot point, but that league certainly confers notability generally speaking. Whether the standard of play might be higher in MLB than NPB is not really part of the debate, but it's just not fair for a well-rounded encyclopedia to refuse to count other fully professional, top level national leagues for notability just as is done in every other sport. matt91486 (talk) 08:07, 15 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
      • I wholeheartedly agree that the top league in certain countries like Cuba and Japan are just as notable as the MLB. But let's not kid ourselves. If a Venezuelan is going all the way to Japan to play baseball, it's not because he was heavily recruited by the Japanese team. As a matter of fact, even if a source is tracked down that they put him in in a blowout game for a couple of innings, I would still argue for deletion. The "top league of a country" was intended to allow for those that are notable as the best baseball players in their country. It was not intended for players who are not notable as baseball players in their own country to suddenly become notable because they managed to get onto the roster of the top league in another country. --brewcrewer (yada, yada) 08:27, 15 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
        • I'd disagree with you on that front then, once they make an appearance, they make an appearance, it's pretty cut and dry. But just to be contrarian, isn't it not too much different than players from other country being recruited from their own home country to major league baseball? In that situation, you'd be saying he must be good if a major league team wants him, but then if a Japanese team wants him, you don't think he is? I must say I'm a little confused in that regard. matt91486 (talk) 18:43, 15 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
          • It's difficult to manifest sarcasm in writing. I'm sure he wasn't recruited, that's the only place that would give him a job. --brewcrewer (yada, yada) 18:50, 15 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
            • Way to have a subtle stab at Nippon Professional Baseball. I'm sure that's not the case at all. Have you ever watched a game of NPB? The standard is HIGH, that's why Japan won the World Baseball Classic, and are always topping the Asian competitions. --Borgardetalk 11:27, 16 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
              • You're getting the wrong impression. I have the utmost respect for the NPB. I would yell bloody murder if the average Japanese player in the NPB gets nominated for deletion. However, if a Venezuelan goes all the way to Japan it is because he couldn't get a comparable professional job in the MLB. MLB, with its large influx of Hispanic, and specifically Venezuelan players, was forsure this person's first choice. Therefore, because he couldn't get a professional job in the MLB, and consequently had to sneak himself onto a 70-man roster of a Japanese team, but couldn't even get into one game, he shouldn't meet the notability guidelines. He's not a notable baseball player in Japan or in Venezuela. --brewcrewer (yada, yada) 15:07, 16 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
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