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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was Delete -- per lack of notability and as a blatant copyright violation. — CactusWriter (talk) 00:15, 19 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Alexandra Mas[edit]

Alexandra Mas (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log · Stats)
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As I analyze the references, I'll skip over those from alexandramas.com, for obvious reasons.

And that's about it. There's a lot of fluff in this, but evidence of WP:ARTIST notability? Or of significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject? Not so much. - Biruitorul Talk 17:31, 10 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]


-Talk the panda ₯’ Arjayay Cullen328, EricEnfermero (talk) benzband talk croak talk talk talk Talk — Preceding unsigned comment added by Leedskalnin (talk • contribs) 21:09, 10 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Dear gentlemen, I ask you for your help about this nomination for deletion. First,Biruitorul has nominalized the article for deletion without to let any message to my page. Second: Alexandra Mas is a painter.She make art.She creates art!Not sing,not play in movies!

<<There's a lot of fluff in this, but evidence of WP:ARTIST notability>>

Do you think the a critic of art like Jean Deulceux is a "fluff"???? He is lecturer at LIISA (Institut supérieur des Arts appliqués).He is a "fluff"??? I don't understand what kind of notability can be necessary for an artist who have over 20 of art show in France,Japan,England! Or the fact that Alexandra in colaboration with famous French couturier Eric Tibush developed a new concept "art to wear"?This a "fluff"? Or the fact that Alexandra created a new current in modern art,"Le magnifisme" is a "fluff"??? Ok, I understand to make an observation, to try to improve, to build something, but instead,to destroy? Why to delete a page about art? What notability is necessary for an modern artist??? Pleas dear users what I call you, I ask your opinion about this kind of behaviour! The article is not finished yet!!!I worked on it!!!This is amazing.I have not yet finished yet the article and Mr.Biruitorul want to be deleted???What kind of world is wikipedia,if this thing will happen??? Notability for ART? Please excuse me but I am very very upppset!!!I worked on this article many weeks, to collect information, about art show,about this extraordinary new concept of Alexandra like: protomater,androide,magnifisme,art-a-porter,her ecological work!!!! Amazing!What the hell notability is necesary for this?Again,this is ART! I'm agree to discuss, to try to build something serrious.The article can be improved, I am sure about that,but in no way deleted!

I enter to Mr Biruitorul talk page and i see that he delete constant the article about personalities with romanian origin.Please verify! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Leedskalnin (talk • contribs) 20:07, 10 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I will wait your opinions gentlemen about "fluff" and Some random pictures!

Sincerely yours,

Adrian

Leedskalnin (talk) 19:42, 10 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Dear Stuartyeates,WP:TOOSOON is about actors,actrice and movies.We here discuss about a painter,about french art!

Anyway ,the article was deleted,don't worry!thanks! Leedskalnin (talk) 09:08, 12 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of France-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 00:35, 11 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This debate has been included in the list of Romania-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 00:35, 11 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This debate has been included in the list of Visual arts-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 00:36, 11 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This debate has been included in the list of People-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 00:36, 11 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • WP:ARTIST says "The person's work (or works) either ... (b)has been a substantial part of a significant exhibition". Are any of those art shows significant? Someone who speaks French can search Google news and Google books for results. Anyone know the name of any French art magazines to search? Dream Focus 09:16, 11 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]


Dear Dream Focus, I hope you dont want to tell me that Museum of Fine Arts, St. Petersburg is not a important exhibition place.Or Grand Palais Paris,GemlucArt,Monaco,Galerie Be Espace, Paris,Espace Ticolas,[33] Paris, Claire Corcia Gallery Paris,Cielo Galery, London....Please,dont tell me that! How about this references http://site.artactif.com/milcovitch/cms/accueil_dernieres_nouvelles_archives-1556.htm, or http://www.sabsconnexions.com/alexandra-mas/... Or dont tell me that jean Deulceux which is proffessor at IISAA (Institut supérieur des Arts appliqués) is a "fluff".Or french couturier Eric Tibusch.

Cullen328,sory for apel,but you have knowledge about art: can any artist to insert his work between of the works of Eric Fischl,John De Andrea,Mel Ramos,Choi Xoooang in the book “Nude Art Today” of the art critic Francis Parent without invitation ? I think the answer is of course NOT.The artist must be invited by the author. Leedskalnin (talk) 11:41, 11 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

This is the list of art shows of Alexandra Mas,with explication:
1994 Second Price for the National Police Billboard design
1995 Industrial Billboard Winner for Rulmentul sa
1997 Small Etching Biennale, group show, Uzice 31 (present in catalogue- one engraving selected)
1998 Autumn Show, UAP, National Theatre Museum, Bucharest (one engraving selected)
Student show, Timisoara (two engravings selected)
1999 Etching Triennial show, Kanagawa T2 (one engraving selected)
Autumn Show, UAP, National Theatre Museum, Bucharest (one engraving selected)
2000 Solo show, etching, hosted by HVB, Bucharest
2002 Atelier 35, group show, Constanta 70 (present in the manifest- one engraving selected)
2006 Performance & Solo show, “Ballet d’esprit” paintings, Paris 02
2011 Solo show, “BodyPaint” pictographs, Cielo Gallery, London W1
Body painting performance “The Self Portrait”, Festival des Passages, Paris 02
Solo Show, “Dancers”, NK Gallery, Paris 03
Solo show, “BodyPaint” pictographs, Memmi Gallery, Paris 08
Intrusion performance in Art Paris “Art to Wear”, Grand Palais, Paris 08
2012 “art to wear, Mad Generation Gallery, Paris 16
“The Portrait” groupe show, Claire Corcia Gallery, Paris 03 (one pictography selected, guest at the Portrait Art Today book Show, she is not present in the book)
“Nude” groupe show, Claire Corcia Gallery, Paris 03 (one pictography selected, Nude Art Today show) 2013 Solo Show, “Auroe des Temps”, C.Bortone Gallery, Paris 06 (writer Jean-Roger Geyer makes a lecture of his text about the artist during the opening)
Autumn Show, group show, Grand Palais, Paris 08 (present in catalogue- one pictography selected)
Gemluc Art, humanitarian group show, Monaco (present in catalogue- one painting selected)
Paris Photo off, groupe show, Be Space Gallery, Paris 11 (six pictographs selected)
Fine Art Academy Museum of Saint Petersburg, group show “Parisian Shades” (four pictographs selected, A King’s Head will make the show’s billboard and communication image)
2014 Permanence, Be Space Gallery, Paris 11 (six pictographs selected)
Solo Show, Ticolas Gallery, Paris 08 (the artist presents sculptures for the first time, she explains the link between hers pictographs and her vanity paintings)
Permanence, Ticolas Gallery, Paris 08 (three pictographs selected)
Fiac Off with Sab’s Connections, Espace d’art Perre Cardin, Paris 08 (two sculptures selected)
2015 Solo Show, Bordeaux 33000
Permanence, Ticolas Gallery, Paris 08 (three pictographs selected)
Permanence, Be Space Gallery, Paris 11 (six pictographs selected)


"Selected": in a group show they are choosing from artist work several , or just one , depending on the show's theme, and the quality of the art work, some shows present only one piece of each artist, some are taking the liberty of hi-lighting one artist , a good example is art academy in st petersburg where Alexandre Mas was the only one with 4 pieces because they chose her art work for the poster

Anyone can buy the book book “Nude Art Today” by Francis Parent and see itself.

Leedskalnin (talk) 12:53, 11 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

TomStar81
• Gene93k
ChamithN
Dream Focus
Arjayay
Cullen328
EricEnfermero
Alexf
Benzband
XXN
FreeRangeFrog
Silviu Alexandru Mihaila
Simiprof
Gug01
Malik Shabazz
Dear wikipedians,
Anyway the article was deleted,but: do you believe that this language is proper for this prestigious site like wikipedia? " who the hell is Jean Deulceux and why should we care what he says?" This is sayed by Biruitorul!!!! Dear Biruitorul,who are you to judge a french art critic?You have some degree in this domain? Jean Deulceus is professor at Institut supérieur des Arts appliqués France http://www.lisaa.com/index.php .

Musée des Beaux-Arts, Saint Petersburg "In a grand and beautiful building built for the Grand Duke Mikhail Pavlovich, son of Paul I, and known as the Mikhailovsky Palace you will find a treasure of Russian art. We esp wanted to see the late 19th and early 20th C. Russian realist and impressionist paintings and were not disappointed. Much less crowded than the Hermitage, the museum is a great opportunity to see beautiful paintings you might not otherwise experience. The Russian Museum was commissioned by Tsar Nicholas II it holds some 400,000 works"
"Scientific-research Museum of the Russian Academy of Arts is a unique art collection not only in Russia, but throughout the world. It was established in the middle of the 18th century simultaneously with the Academy of Arts and appeared to become a truly unique collection. Only here, getting acquainted with the works of the students and the teachers one can see the first steps of the future artist and which steps lead to the mastership highlights. The Academy of Arts holds the drawings, engravings, paintings of Russian and West European masters, as well as casts of antique and West European sculptures which served as models for drawing in classes of “plaster heads” and “plaster figures”.

The building of the Academy of Arts itself which was built in 1764-1772 according to the design of Kokorinov and de la Mothe, two teachers of the Academy of Arts’ architecture class, represents an outstanding architecture monument of early Russian Classicism attributed to “especially valuable cultural heritage objects”. Russian painters and sculptors of the 18th-19th centuries decorating ceremonial interiors, the present residence of the Museum of Academy of Arts, embodied the idea of importance of arts in the life of the educated society and in Russia’s destiny and strived to give the younger generations of masters of “three most distinguished arts” the idea of their honorable calling. Academy’s House Church, Raphael and Titian halls were decorated in 1830s after the design of Ton, the author of the Christ the Savior Cathedral in Moscow, rector of the Academy of Arts in 1840s-1850s" http://eng.nimrah.ru/museum/
This is an museum "fluff" (this is your expresion).
Grand Palais
"a single picture" meaningless!!!!Yes,Of course!
What about http://site.artactif.com/milcovitch/cms/accueil_dernieres_nouvelles_archives-1556.htm? Mircea Milcovitch its a "fluff"?
Of course,for you Mircea Milcovitvh is a fluff, I know,yes.
How about http://www.amazon.fr/Nude-Today-Troisi%C3%A8me-Edition-2013-2014/dp/2953254862?164 artists are listed in this album.Alexandra is one of they!164 from entire world!Is meningles of course! Dear Biruitorul, Iam very happy that you are catalogued a portion of art francais like fluff.All this galeries (Galerie BE-Espace, Ticolas, Galerie Claire Corcia, Musée des Beaux-Arts du Monaco, Musée des Beaux-Arts, Saint Petersburg, Galerie Memmi, Kanagawa International Print Triennial, GemlucArt, Cielo Gallery),Eric Tibuch,LISAA,al of this means nothing to you.
Anyway,beacuse you extraordinary skills in art domain,the article was deleted already.What can I say?Keep up the good work!Congratulations and thank you very much!
Leedskalnin (talk) 09:08, 12 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Dear Biruitorul, I sent the link of this conversation (including your remarks ) to Mr.Professor from Institut supérieur des Arts appliqués France. I will wait his reply, which I post this.Next time,don't use the afirmation like this:
" who the hell is Jean Deulceux and why should we care what he says?"
Leedskalnin (talk) 10:47, 12 November 2014 (UTC) Thank you very much![reply]

  • I see there's plenty more vapidity waiting for me to steamroller.
  • In an attempt to establish the significance of the Saint Petersburg Museum, you start with a review from TripAdvisor (!): see WP:V for that; then continue with self-praise from the museum's own website. Not good enough, I'm afraid. I'll also note you haven't even offered a citation as to Mas' presence at the museum, rendering this entire angle irrelevant.
  • Next, and again pardon my phrasing, but just who the bloody hell is Mircea Milcovitch, and why should anyone give a fig about his musings? (And no, repeating he's a "known artist" isn't going to cut it. Try adducing some independent sources.) Well, you've admitted he is the uncle of Mas: COI, anyone? In any event, what you've brought from Milcovitch is, again, meaningless: two photos on his personal blog. I'm not sure how that's supposed to indicate notability, given that this encyclopedia is based on textual sources, not on pictures posted by uncles of their nieces standing before some twisted piece of rock that's supposed to be "art".
  • An amazon.com sale page is not a reliable source, per WP:ELNO, point 5.
  • As for Jean Deulceux: simply repeating he's a professor at the wretched Institut supérieur des Arts appliqués (note the red link) isn't doing much for his standing. That happens to be a private institution, which, let's be honest, in the French context is a receptacle for third-rate hacks who weren't good enough to land a position at a real school like École nationale supérieure des Beaux-Arts, École nationale supérieure de création industrielle, École nationale supérieure des arts décoratifs, and so forth. In other words, in terms of notability, he's a nobody. And the opinions of a nobody reproduced on the website of a nobody amount to nothing. Or, as King Lear put it rather more eloquently, "nothing will come of nothing". - Biruitorul Talk 15:04, 12 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]


Dear Administrator,Clerck,or OTRS member,and wikipedian users who are interested in this case, The acussation for this article is the lack of notability.For example,Mr.professor Jean Deulceux,in opinion of acusator has not notability.This is a matter where I am not so sure. In my opinion, no one can be professor at LISAA (I quted from the site of institution :"Reconnu par le ministère de la culture et de la communication" )without have a very solid expertise in art domain.It is obviously in my opinion.Even he is not a public person (in art,is very hard to be a public person,because the artist have very little time to expend oninterviews in mass media,which anyway is not very interested in this domain of critic art).Anyway,other user argues against acusator saying that: WP:ARTIST says "The person's work (or works) either ... (b)has been a substantial part of a significant exhibition".Again,the acusator say that the location where the artshows of Mrs.Mas was exposed has not coverage in wikipedia.i think this is not a evidence.For example:Musée des Beaux-Arts, Saint Petersburg is scientific-research Museum of the Russian Academy,of course a very respectable institution.The museum hasover 400000 artworks,and his galleries are very appreciated in entire world. Or Grandpalais from Paris,or other galleries (Galerie BE-Espace, Ticolas, Galerie Claire Corcia, Musée des Beaux-Arts du Monaco,Galerie Memmi, Kanagawa International Print Triennial, GemlucArt, Cielo Gallery) where Mrs.Mas was exposed:they are very exclusiviste gallery,even they not appear in wikipedia.Anyone can consulting they sites,and see the point.Also, Mr.art critic Francis Paren, art critic and member of l'AICA (International Association of Art Critics)http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Association_of_Art_Critics invited Mrs.Mas to participate with her artwolrks next with other 164 famous artist from entire world in the book “Nude Art Today”.I think this tell something.In the light of this facts,in my opinion,the subject has a chance,and the readers of wikipedia from entire world will find many interesting things about contemporary art from this article.The acusator say that I quoted from Mrs.Alexandra Mas site.I respond to this acusation: this domain of contemporany art is very complex and very hard to explain to mass audience.I'm a very pasionate art lover,in specially modern art,but I don't have the knowledge of Mr.Deulceux,or Mrs.Mas to explain the terms like "Vanitas","Protomater","Magnifisme","Art a la porte".This are new born currents in modern arts,developed or created by Mrs.Mas,in colaboration with other art creators,like Christopher Lavenaire or coutourier Eric Tibusch (http://www.tibusch.com/)french couturier.This is the cause for what I quoted that texts.Mrs.reporter AFP https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marie-Christiane_Marek, realease in 2010 an reportage about this modern concept of Art a la Wear,in which the artworks are converted in fashion creations and presented at fashion parade in entire world.This a new link http://vimeo.com/15566742 which I inserted in temporary page where the article is rebuilded.Also,another aspects who can be considered is the fact that Mrs.Alexandra Mas gave up rights to utilization of some of her artworks: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:LightTry_AMas_140.80.jpg https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:ProtoMatterIII_detail_AMas.jpg https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:AKingshead2_Stupendium-AMas.jpg https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Windgod_AMas_pictography.jpg https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Moarning2_engraving_AMas.jpg https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Prokofief_artaporter_2013.jpg to wikipedians wich is almost impossible to obtaining from any other artists.She have not a very interests in this article,but I succeded to convince her that this is for interests of wikipedian lovers of modern art.It will be a would be a great loss for wikipedians if this remarcable (in my opinion) artworks can't be inserted into a rebuild article .Convince your self. (this artwotks ar very expensive,and of course the rights for publication the same).Please help me in my efforts in building this article.Also,I make an apel to Mrs. user Moonriddengirl which I understand is an autority in copyrights matter to help in the matter of the texts which I can or not quoted in my article.Again,I don't want to renounce at this texts,because is a far better explanation of the art fenomenon depicted in article that I can make.At this moment,the article was moved for rebuilding at atemporary page at link https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Alexandra_Mas/Temp. I want to ask you to put a mark or something on this page that it can't be deleted.I want to continue to work at this page,and I need that link because at this moment that page are consulted by french artists and art critics whom I ask the opinion.And of course to wikipedia users which are showing interest in this subject.The user who moved the article added an template,but I'm affraid is not enough.You can imagine that is very hard to sent Mrs.Deulceux,or Mrs Paren for example the article in Microsoft Word,or other forms. .If its not posible,please tell me how long can maintain that temporary link?This is a very important matter,I hope you understand me. Of course,If my effort to constructed again this article not succeded the page can be deleted finally.But I need time, is a very hard work trust me.I am sure that you know is not easey to collect information from artists,from art critics(some has not time,some are not interested,etc). Thank you very much for your help, Sincerely yours, Adrian C. Alias Leedskalnin (talk) 08:11, 13 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Dear user of wikipedia,
If you want to make observation about this article,please use the standard of Wikipedia:Civility,in spirit of good collaboration and friendship with our french readers. This discussion are followed by next french people:
Mr.professor Jean Deulceux (http://interventions-histoire-de-l-art.over-blog.com/)LISAA (Institut supérieur des Arts appliqués);
Mr. Francis Parent(http://www.francis-parent.com/) art critic ,member of AICA (http://www.aicainternational.org/)
Mrs.Alexandra Mas french artist,like subject of article;
Mr.Erich Tibusch,french couturier(http://www.tibusch.com/)
Mrs.Aurore Tome,french actress(http://www.aurore-tome.com/accueil.cfm/367301_aurore_tome.html);
Mr.Mircea Milkovitch(http://site.artactif.com/milcovitch/),french sculptor;
Mr. Christopher Lavenaire,french pictor (http://www.lavenair.book.fr/);
Thank you again. Leedskalnin (talk) 18:13, 13 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

  • You are continually getting caught up in irrelevant details. The real question before us is not whether this or that gallery or museum or critic is notable (although that's certainly a factor), but whether Mas meets the criteria set out at WP:ARTIST. As to whether her work "has been a substantial part of a significant exhibition": that is not really a difficult question; it is answerable through reviews in the right places. Charles James and Sigmar Polke were the subjects of recent exhibitions at the MoMA, reviewed here and here by the NYT; the Ralph Fasanella show at the Smithsonian American Art Museum was picked up by the WaPo. Of course, these three artists would still be notable if these exhibitions had never occurred and been reviewed, but that is the level of coverage that indicates an artist's work "has been a substantial part of a significant exhibition". It's not a subjective standard, but one established through a meaningful level of coverage. And of course, in the case of Mas, such coverage is entirely absent. It's not enough to say "everyone knows about such and such art gallery, therefore her work was a substantial part of a significant exhibition". It doesn't work that way; it works through critical attention in legitimate publications.
  • (I cannot help but remark, parenthetically, that whatever the status of the Saint Petersburg museum may be, you've failed to provide any kind of source as to her alleged exhibition there. An unsubstantiated claim of that type cannot even begin to be evaluated.)
  • And again: "has won significant critical attention". This is, in its essence, not a subjective measure either. Reviews of the type linked above, or detailed coverage in independently edited publications, or quotable text in published volumes (notice I said "quotable"; you've never quoted Nude Art Today, despite mentioning it over and over): that's "significant critical attention". Not what some guy says on her website. It's not too difficult to see the difference in levels of coverage.
  • Furthermore, WP:BASIC: "significant coverage in multiple published secondary sources which are reliable, intellectually independent of each other, and independent of the subject". That's a rather high standard. And you've manifestly failed to show she meets it, or even tried to show it. - Biruitorul Talk 15:19, 14 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]



About notability in art, just an art expert can apreciate this.We don't discuss her about Justin Bieber, Sir!We discusd here about french art.About art current,about concepts in art.It is not about hip pop.I just ask that special case of modern art to judged by a clerk or administrator who are solid knowledge about arr.If you consider that Alexandra Mas and her concept of Magnifisme,Vanitas,protomater,art a porter have absolut not importance for wikipedia,I am stunned.The discussion about this subject are followed by a number of french personalities,like Jean Deulceux,art critic and professor at Institute Superieur de Art Aplique,Francis Paren,member of Aica.Please believe me,thi gentlemen was stunned when they heard that an artist like Alexandra Mas who at age of 36 years has over 22 arts shows in many prodigious place in the world had not notability. I don't know what to say anymoore.If for you the opinion of Birutorul(by the way,I don't know what expertise have in art),are over the opinion of two great french art critics that means the wikipedia will evolve to just an informativ media agency who in time will loose the interest of his supporter.Wikipedia must evolve,must adapt to new chalenge,to new manifests.It is not ok to consider moore interesting Justin Bieber that an french artist. Ok,this is my opinion,anyway,I don't loose nothing,just an article.But believe me,I say with bitterness this,wikipedia loose much moore.Loose that spirit of encyclopedic adventure,of knowledge,of curiosity,of curtoasy about the true vallor of this world.Your decision fill me again with bitternes and not understanding.But I hope,in timt,that old and to rigid standard of notability which suffocated any try to give a new imbold to new frontiet will be improved.Wikipedia dont apartain to standards and rigid rulles,but to knowledge and informations.Wikipedia must desire to evolve to fill this great thirst of the world for knowledge.Not notability!Knowledge! Reliable sources means nothing for me me if this source has not expertize.For me is faae better the opinion of Mr.Deulceux about Titian that opinion of Washington Post.Again,this is not about footbal,or some hip hop or some movie.Its about peinture,about art technics,simbolism,currents etc.Dont judge a vallor in art by rulles which are not applicable here.An artshow is not you tube to gattering millions of spectateurs.A pieces of art is not an iphone,is unique.A comment of Mr.Deulceux wrote on the wall of a building is for me much valuable that apparition in washington post of some short news wrote by journalist.This is my opinion and I dont change it. With respect, Adrian Leedskalnin (talk) 07:48, 15 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

  • Delete It seems that the recent version of the article is based on copyright violations. Therefore, it must go. Ten thousand words of passionate argument without good sources accomplishes nothing. Far better to bring forth four or five indisputably reliable and independent sources that devote significant coverage to this artist. So far, I see a multitude of weak sources. We do not provide a "free pass" to articles about artists, just because the writer of the article is a devoted fan. Any future article must be neutral and well sourced. Take as an example Mel Ramos, an artist mentioned above, and I've worked on that article. Decades of exhibitions in major museums. Several books written about his life and work. Indisputably notable. Cullen328 Let's discuss it 17:25, 15 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]



Dear Sir Cullen328,I appreciate very much your opinion it is very constructive,even is negative about article.I have read your article,and indeed,is a very good job.I see in it an help hand for me.If I would decided to continue to work on this subject in the future,I will take like reference your article.It is very suggestive for me.Thank you again,Sir.
Leedskalnin (talk) 19:32, 16 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]


The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
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