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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. Tone 16:48, 19 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Alcatraz water tower[edit]

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Alcatraz water tower (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log · Stats)
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No separate notability. Qwirkle (talk) 04:12, 12 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  • Cullen328, I think notability is at best tenuous. Can you make a case for notability? Drmies (talk) 04:13, 12 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    • Drmies, given that it is a highly visible structure on a very famous National Historical Monument in the middle of San Francisco Bay, and given that it and its graffiti is by far the most visible relic of the 19 month occupation of the island by Native American activists from 1969 to 1971, it should definitely be described in detail on Wikipedia. Just that fact that taxpayers spent over $1 million to renovate an unused old water tower is an indication of its significance. For now, I will leave it to others to decide whether a separate article is justified, or whether this structure can be described adequately in the main article. I see there are quite a few spinoff articles about Alcatraz "landmarks" and perhaps covering all that content in the main article would be unwieldy. Cullen328 Let's discuss it 04:57, 12 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Most, indeed, almost all of the notable aspects would belong on one of the main articles though, were there one. As to be “spun off”, the edit history doesnt seen to suggest that. Qwirkle (talk) 05:01, 12 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I think that WP:SPINOFF is relevant to this discussion. Cullen328 Let's discuss it 05:14, 12 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Simply removing the many poor sources - note how authorhouse plays a large part in notability - and cutting back the undue focus on the supernatural would allow these..10? 12? articles to be covered by two or three decent ones. Qwirkle (talk) 05:18, 12 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I see no mention of Authorhouse in the current reference list and no mention of the supernatural. Please clarify, Qwirkle. Cullen328 Let's discuss it 05:24, 12 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This discussion has been included in the list of California-related deletion discussions. ~Ruyaba~ {talk} 06:28, 12 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Architecture-related deletion discussions. Bakazaka (talk) 06:40, 12 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Here is the first self-published work added. Here’s another. Regarding the supernatural, we have Legends of Alcatraz, unalloyed spookglurge, we have a section in the Prison...  :::::::::...Then we got:
  • Baker Beach All in the Prison article. Also all in the escape article. No ghosts, though.
  • Boat Dock See anything there that doesn’t belong in the main article? (Aside from the factual inaccuracies, of course.)
  • Building 64 Yep, a single rather unremarkable building.
  • Citadel Despite its name, this is about the whole fort.
  • Dining Hall Compare this with its section in the prison article. No space saving there.
  • Former Military Chapel (Bachelor Quarters) Again, a rather unremarkable building
  • Helipad This one, D.g., was already taken behind the barn and shot on sight. An admin appears to have given the coupe de grace without an AfD for it in particular, since it was a redirect to the other red link below.
  • Library Note how little it contains that isn’t in the prison article,
  • Lighthouse Goddamn. A legitimate stand-alone.
  • Main Cellhouse A redirect. Again, legit.
  • Model Industries Building All but a photo in the main article. Sourced to commercial spam
  • Morgue One third of sources commercial spam. Not bad on the duplication, though.
  • New Industries Building Spooky storiez!!! ...and, of course, some mandatory duplication
  • Officers' Club Authorhouse.
  • Parade Grounds Yep, an article on...space. Acreage. Real esate. Flat ground. What made it worse was it was what every link to “Parade ground” on Wiki went to. To compound that, it had a bunch of (duplicative) stuff on buildings built on the space, so like the Citadel article, it was misleadingly named.
  • Power House Notice its all duplication, damned near.
  • [[Recreation Yard (Alcatraz)|Recreation Yard] Authorhouse, twice over.
  • Wardens House Pretty much in the other article, no?
  • Water Tower
Still think we need more spinoffs? Qwirkle (talk)
Qwirkle, we are discussing this specific article not those other articles. I have certainly never said or implied that we need more spinoffs. Please stay on topic. Cullen328 Let's discuss it 16:06, 12 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
This list is directly responsive to your I see there are quite a few spinoff articles about Alcatraz "landmarks" and perhaps covering all that content in the main article would be unwieldy. Here, spinoffs have done next to nothing to decrease the central article’s size, they appear to have been added almost reflexsively, as stubs. How, exactly, does that help the reader? Qwirkle (talk) 16:40, 12 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This debate has been included in the Article Rescue Squadron's list of content for rescue consideration. Andrew D. (talk) 09:57, 12 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Showing that something has some coverage does not establish independent notability, otherwise we would be inundated by articles like [[1]]. This subject is already covered in both the article on the island and the article on the occupation. (The cite given relates almost entirely to the occupation). Questions about independent notability can not be answered ny showing just any coverage; WP:PAGEDECIDE would still have to answered as well. Qwirkle (talk) 15:14, 12 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep Notable historic San Francisco landmark. No compliance with WP:Before. Meets WP:GNG. WP:Not paper. 7&6=thirteen (☎) 15:53, 12 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep I agree with Cullen328's reasoning. I added a referenced bit to the article about how when they rebuilt the tower they repainted the graffiti as well. The information in this article is not found in the main article. I think merging all of these articles into that one would make it too large. Dream Focus 20:13, 12 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Not in the main article? what, then is this:
Alcatraz Water Tower[edit]
Main article: Alcatraz Water Tower

The Water Tower in 2008, visibly rusting.
The Water Tower is located on the northwestern side of the island, near Tower No. 3, beyond the Morgue and Recreation Yard.[110] The water tank is situated on six cross-braced steel legs submerged in concrete foundations.[111][112]

As Alcatraz had no water supply of its own, it had to import it from the mainland, brought by tug and barge.[113] During the island's military years, there were in-ground water tanks and water tanks were situated on the roof of the citadel.[114] The water tower was built in 1940–41 by the Federal Bureau of Prisons,[115] after the island received a government renovations grant to supply the majority of the island's fresh water.[114][dubious – discuss]

It is the tallest building on the island, at a height of 94 feet (29 m) with a volume of 250,000 US gallons (950 kL) gallons of fresh water. It was used to store potable water for drinking, water for firefighting, and water for the island's service laundry facility.[116][112]}}
At Alcatraz Federal Penitentiary? Everything up to the closedown, nearly as big as the watertower article. So what, exactly, are you calling the main article?
Then you got, by contrast, Graffiti on the Water Tower as caption to a so-so photo as the whole mention on Occupation of Alcatraz, where it is, in fact, relevant. This is what happens when articles get split unneccsarily: gaps, POV forks, etc. Qwirkle (talk) 21:03, 12 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
And the information that is not in the main article is:
During the Occupation of Alcatraz, the water tower was subject to heavy graffiti by the Native Americans and has since become a cultural landmark.[3][4] Graffiti included "free Indian land -- Indians welcome."
The tower has been empty since 1963 and has deteriorated, eroded by the salt air and wind. From November 2011 through April 2012, the tower was given a US$1.1 million restoration to prevent "irreparable damage and loss of important historic resources".[3] Steel components were replaced and the tower was seismically upgraded. The lead paint was sanded and the tower repainted with marine paint.[5] They repainted the famous graffiti. [6]
Anyway, the main article is rather long, just have short bits of things and link to the side articles. If this article is merged over all of that should be there, no sense not having the information about its graffiti not with the rest of the information. Dream Focus 21:25, 12 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Weak Keep - The sources on the historical significance of the graffiti, as well as the coverage its restoration was given, seems to give this one some independent notability. 22:07, 13 February 2019 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 169.232.162.112 (talk)
  • Keep, don't merge. Graffiti and coverage of restoration. Britishfinance (talk) 16:35, 19 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
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